Server XP and you

SnarleysAngel wrote:Everyone will eventually make many, many alts and the server play will more than likely trend toward a power gaming arena type of server with people logging in different chars to fill whatever role is required at the time during PvP conflicts.

Good point. Though Moths turned to this with the xp as low as it was. So the xp being low will only slow this down not change it. We will have to come up with a way to combat this on another thread.

Aluive wrote:but it wouldnt bother me it being normal, as it gives more play time on a single character, pushing towards more rp with that character and a lot less alt characters.

I also think it would be great to have single characters around longer. Even with xp low though at 40 most tend to make alts. We really need a solution to this problem as well. We should brainstorm on another thread.

DM Felix wrote:
Thee if you want to make a case to go back to the default NWN script we can go there. It just seems like back peddling to me.

I support xp being the same as before, even if its not by using the nwn script, if there is a way to raise the xp gain to provide relatively the same amount, that would be a good compromise i'd be happy with.

The bugs you discribed, i hate them too... it basicly encouraged higher lvls to kidnap and hold lower lvls hostage for their own benefit... and at the same time encouraged lower levels to solo and desperately avoid any stalking high lvls...
But i am joking in a over exagerated manner... non of this went to such extremes.. but the distinct seperation between low lvls vs high lvls was apparent... Basing who you travel with based on lvl gap...

(my main arguement is as it stands now, new players/alts just missed out based on the fact that they've started playing now, been created now... its like a punishment for not joining/creating earlier?)

I also understand the arguements of the other side,,
not a challenge? -go fight goblins nude with fists!
and rp buddys making new chars and that loss of rp? -
make them more interested in their character!
(by showing interest in their character, pry into their backstory, force them involved in an ongoing 'player plot', who says only dm's can make quests!? within limitations characters can formulate quests as well... the reward is mainly rp and any xp gathered along the way.)

I am just being silly in the above replies.. and yet... still somewhat suggesting valid solution to reduce the issue.. aha!

I personally am a weirdo odd person that has remain spending most of my time on as a lvl 40, gaining xp thats relatively useless other than "saftey xp" so deaths don't cause a delvl. -
i do it for the rp... (and crafting).

If this is aboot having lvl 40's stay with their old chars...
There are better ways to encourage lvl 40's to remain rping their lvl 40's or using their lvl 40's for rp rather than raids or pging others or money making.. or crafting.. or treasure gathering... and discouraging them making alts is one method.. but at the same time it punished new players xD
If its not aboot that then disaregard the message between these two If statements!

I really love myra <3
but i really dislike the thought of one group of players getting an advantage that another group will be missing out on.
In my case my dislike of unfairness outweighs my love for myra!

(sorry myra... i promise i'll remake you, and hope for new rp with other characters will be just as good if not better, if the server wipes and flushes... ).

TheeVals
I feel like you either didn't read the posts above on this topic or you read them and misunderstood them.
Let me try and clarify. I am hosting Moths public mod not the one which Star had altered because I am weary of changes that we will not know of that could adversely effect the mod.
There is not going to be a server vault wipe because I don't think that is what anyone wants(correct me if I am wrong). Most want the xp to be about what it was before. That is why this topic was started to get feedback from the playerbase. We will up the xp but we will up it in the far superior Moth xp script. We will just have to play with how much we want to do so. Monday at the latest we will be on a remote server and the xp will be bumped back up then.

I still would like to hear from anyone else that hasn't chimed in. Thank you for everyone that has.

DM Felix wrote:TheeVals
I feel like you either didn't read the posts above on this topic or you read them and misunderstood them.

Sorry, its a pet peeve of mine to be feeling that way. I empathize with you and ensure you i have read every word of every post. Its hard to understand the way i explain my oppinions sometimes i know peeps tell me this all the time! so don't worry.

We're suffereing a simple case of misscommunication but i understand the server aint same as star's since i saw the ranz tavern is gone.. xD (lol at velvet when they find out...)

A lot of people have made excellent points, but i can say that after having a lvl 40 if the XP was as low as it is now i would probably not have continued to play. As a lot of people have said they wouldn't since the change.

That being said, People not playing their lvl 40 or 40s because they created an alt is no different than Loving RPing with people and them stop playing completely because of the lowered XP gain.
Most people know i play several alts, I would gladly give up all of them to get the xp increased for future people that join.

One way of making sure people dont "Counterlog" is to restrict the changing of chars once a battle alarm sounds (IE. Druids have spotted Axfells approaching Cleaven.) Also we can limit the number of Alternate chars to 1. Upon asking a DM to delete an old char you may create a new one starting again at lvl 4. Which makes people think twice about ditching old chars that have been RPing in the fort.

I'm not convinced that counterlogging is a problem. We didn't see it much on Moth's. Sure, we did see flavor of the week relogs (quick, everyone, to the archer squad!), but it was never really done to counter a specific assault force. (On Axfell side, at least. I didn't play Cleaven much.)

And it seems to me that keeping character totals down sidesteps the issue without really fixing it.

I feel the problem is, largely, that the module never really allowed for player driven change on Moth's. When your character can't actually accomplish anything, then why on earth would you want to continue to play them past level 40, loot runs and PvP aside? There's just no real incentive there. No point.

KumoKumo wrote:I'm not convinced that counterlogging is a problem. We didn't see it much on Moth's.

Gotta say I disagree with this entirely... especially at the end.

I saw it happen time and time again based upon party chat due to players logged in while personally playing characters on both sides.

Anyhow, we'd have a real long time to go before we'd ever be able to achieve that.

I guess Daddio Felix just wants to find the right balance, as we all do.


Restarting is a bitch... but what if we restart now we have roughly 30 regular players.


Initially It was me, TheeVals, a person who isn't here any more, and another person who is now logging in once every two weeks.

That continued for about 2 weeks then it snowballed

I'm up for coming up with an XP standard then restarting to be honest... from my perspective, about half the people came here cause they were familiar with other anph mods, half cause genesis or exodus, and then others cause there was a populated server.


I'm kinda masochistic about playing nwn, but I think it's cause I played a squishy mage initially on moths. So I'm happy when something is entirely impossible... then maybe achieved 5% of the time cause we rolled a natural 20

It took me a while to realise that is just my own kink, however I'd like to see something between that and what we had xp-wise before.

I certainly don't want a meta-gaming, arena-type environment here though, and that is really what can happen if it is allowed to. I think a fast xp rate will contribute to that. I also believe that we can find a way to curb that, just want to make sure we talk about it

SnarleysAngel wrote:
I certainly don't want a meta-gaming, arena-type environment here though, and that is really what can happen if it is allowed to. I think a fast xp rate will contribute to that. I also believe that we can find a way to curb that, just want to make sure we talk about it

I wont give names or anything but me personally i sometimes get the feeling that this server is already headed in that direction. Between being told about powerbuilds with 8 int... and the intention of rping being able to speak, etc.. or ooc chit chat of powerbuilds in general... I get the sense that currently all my charaters are based mainly on rp choices and little to no thought is placed into making them useful in pvp.

I'm not saying making a powerful build that is good in pvp automaticly means the player can't rp or wont rp. You can have a char meant to be good in pvp and still have decent roleplay, but the point is the initial goal for the character being made is for pvp. Thats why server is turning areana based in my eyes.

I also wonder how many clerics who play have their alignment and domains properly matched to a diety.... since rping stats is ignored by some... possible other rps could be ignored...

Well.. that has been the nature of this mod historically (IMO). Not that it should stay that way, but it will probably always trend that way.

Builds are built for PvP or PvE and RP is not really dictated by build attributes but player whims.

We (the mod) really always have been and always will be RP-lite. I really like the fact that this place can cater to RPers, PvPers, Grinders, etc etc...


Personally I'm fine with people RP'n something not detailed in their char sheet, but just cause we cater to multiple styles of play and people aren't bound to their build RP-wise I certainly don't want just an arena type environment although I'm happy the mod can cater to those that want to play that way.

That's why I loved Moths/Genesis/Exodus....
It's not that bunch of people are sitting by the fire, wrinkling noses, pointing index fingers and so on and so on, talking about mysterious past and epic childhood....After all those years, I literally started to hate it.

The beauty of this MOD is, that there's an absolute freedom - nobody forces you to rp. All the powergamers gotta love that.

And wtf. What kind of imbecile would take 8int for a pvp build :-D

SnarleysAngel wrote:

KumoKumo wrote:I'm not convinced that counterlogging is a problem. We didn't see it much on Moth's.

Gotta say I disagree with this entirely... especially at the end.

Yea I would have to agree with Snarley. I feel like each side did it and no one asked if they should only if it wasn't illegal. I remember doing it. I remember some people assaulting dieing then re logging with the next level 40 with up to 3 characters. I remember some players actually switching level 40s that were in different forts in the middle of an assault.

Some people did such things only because of the frustration, when they saw 5 cleavens assaulting and the axfells were afk in barracks (multiple characters deaths of the same player)
And sometimes people just wanted to give the assaulters challenge, so the cleavens wouldn't fight only the guards. (switching the sides)

Never saw it as a bad thing...
Please, don't call me shortsighted.
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edit:

Hell, I even remember logging my cleric on the laptop so he could buff Rugi and heal her....you have no idea what a challenge it was for me to handle two characters in that assault....It lead into completely different kind of entertainment

Personally I think the boosted exp was a nice little add on I did. Not just to bring players in, but to make the game a little less frustrating to level up when you had to play alone. (Due to number of people that were AFK all the time)
It was also a good but not overpowering balance to the exp loss when you died, and the death penalty if you ask me is even worse since you can drop in levels, something I dont really agree with in the first place, but I didnt know how to change it. The reason I dont agree with the loss of levels due to death is, when you level up and learn how to brew potions, in a fantasy setting, why would you forget it if you died and came back to life? I mean, come on. If you want to say "Well you died," then shouldnt we go with perma death?

"but I didnt know how to change it"

Each level has a XP value.
When the death script enters in play, it would need a "nested if".
If originalXP > _AMOUNT_NECCESARY_FOR_40 && reducedXp < _AMOUNT_NECCESARY_FOR_40
reducedXP = _AMOUNT_NECCESARY_FOR_40

This can be done to each level, and for optimizing this, the starting point needs to be the middle of
the scale (20) and running the levels to left if originalXP < _AMOUNT_NECCESARY_FOR_20 or
to right if originalXP >= _AMOUNT_NECCESARY_FOR_20

In the worst case, they will be 20 nested ifs (level 40), but the quantity of time wasted in death scripts
among all the day is minimal.

Being the lowest level the level 4, we can optimize it a bit more starting from level 22 (for a total
nested ifs in the worst case of 18).

Rugnarie wrote:Some people did such things only because of the frustration, when they saw 5 cleavens assaulting and the axfells were afk in barracks (multiple characters deaths of the same player)
And sometimes people just wanted to give the assaulters challenge, so the cleavens wouldn't fight only the guards. (switching the sides)

Its just feels very odd when you start an assault with a group and an important character's player logs off to join as a level 40 on the opposing fort and fight against you. That wasn't worded the best way. Can anyone else expound?

Server Admin Starbridge wrote:The reason I dont agree with the loss of levels due to death is, when you level up and learn how to brew potions, in a fantasy setting, why would you forget it if you died and came back to life? I mean, come on. If you want to say "Well you died," then shouldnt we go with perma death?

Reasoning with logic about resurrection memory loss isn't a very solid argument IMO. If there was no penalty for death right after you got your level people would be reckless right after they leveled and people would use death as a way to travel back to their forts after level.

Now if you say it like that, it actually sounds wrong....

Which is why I mostly rejected to assault with the rest of the party and logged off. It kinds smells like metagaming, knowing that they would attack, but if I wouldn't tell anybody, I didn't really see anything wrong with that. ( I hate assaulting, I love defending.)

I wasn't really trying to make any kind of a point....Some fool mentioned you guys were interested to read players' comments, so I started my brain enema :-)

I remmember having my main char Myra offline (but in ranz) this one time, and i was playing as Pod (a lowerlvl) bumped into at least 4-5 axfells in the city.

The temptation to relog as myra was there, that temptation was resisted and i stayed on as Pod.

Point;
I'm sure other players can try and have enough empathy towards others to know whether what they do is lame or not.


And if players can't be trusted screenshots and proof of reloggin onto another toon after involvment in an assault or pvp, should be taken, reported... and the punishment!? Take away the privilage of having more than one character.
They can't be trusted to responsible -not- metagame? they shouldnt be allowed more than one character.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but its my oppinion. The worst that can happen is we lose a player that we doesn't want around anyways, because their lame. xD

(also best not to punish everyone with a only 1 char rule... just those that abuse it).

DM Felix wrote:Reasoning with logic about resurrection memory loss isn't a very solid argument IMO. If there was no penalty for death right after you got your level people would be reckless right after they leveled and people would use death as a way to travel back to their forts after level.

Well, they would not have any gold when the used that as a teleport back to the fort, or a timer could he used for the Sphere to send you back. Item loss on death? That would be a good one.
"1 more level and I can use this awesome armor!" *Levels then dies to teleport back* "Oh $H!T! Where did my armor go! NOOOO!"
I think I would laugh if that happened to me, then I would shrug and start all over again.

But whatever.

I don't know if its possible, but the level protection could be for the player death only (pvp and pve) but make the orb a standard loss of 250 xp per level with no protection.. so if someone dies and such it isn't so harsh, and I think people wouldn't mind pvp'n as much either, since they won't lose their levels, but they would think twice about go'n to Darons to shop, and killing self to orb because they don't feel like going back (*knows a player that used to do this*) Although, if you play your level 40 long enough, you'll have enough xp to do that a few times anyway.

Counter-logging was rampant on Moth's. I remember a time when it was a guarantee that if you tripped the Cleaven alarms when assaulting with your party of 2-3, a MSN flurry went out and 7 lvl 40 characters came on in the following minute. But if they were to counter-log to make it 4 vs 3 instead of 3 vs the guards and a lvl 11, then it would hardly be "lame".

The problem, then, is not the counter-logging itself but people's judgement, and a quick look at world affairs will show that this is a deeper area of disagreement than any little module can adress. Some people specialize in PvP, some in RP, some in PvE. I don't think any of these is the problem, unless you want to ask people who know the effective builds to tone their playing down.

Metagaming is an intrinsic part of this game, even on RP-heavy modules. Using the minimap is metagaming; attacking a shifted character you've never met before is metagaming; using the combat log to identify an immunity and change strategy is metagaming. Many things like this fall in the category of metagaming, in that they are things your character don't know, but they become accepted over time (for convenience?), and only blatant metagaming in party chat gets called wrong.

I think the problem is that some people are motivated to win PvP, period, and don't care if the other character has any chance. The only way I can think of adressing this is to involve some kind of "responsibility" to winning. The winning party would be forced to do... "something" once they won a battle. I just don't know what would be a dissentive to rampant ganking while still not being a chore for fights that are more balanced.

If your other PCs also exist in the world, then why not.

Hello again.

Any new about the XP system?

Thx.

It will be bumped up again. Probably when we move over to the remote server. That could be as soon as today, though that's not a guarantee.

So the server xp is in. Let us know what you think. Its important to remember that the second line of xp on Stars would be cut in half each additional party member or summon you had with you. This one shouldn't decrease unless someone is more than 7 levels apart I think. Correct me if I am wrong Kumo.

Experience seems less than it was before?

To clarify: it is still a moderate amount less than it was, or it seems that way at least.