Population problems, reasons and measures

Rugnarie wrote:P.S: I think I remember Thonil becoming lvl 40 within a week

Who is Thonil?

Are you talking about the last age of 300 xp by monster?

Ivel, the DMs do not want you to leave. I am going to share this story of what happened yesterday to illustrate a point. After planning for over a week a group event Alessio and Ivel go to prepare and have Ivel mine ruby so he can mine the mithral the group will get to later. We get to hope and just before the stream my keyboard and mouse suddenly went out and I was just standing in a bad spot for a little. Ivel healed Alessio a few times and finally my keyboard and mouse started working. Alessio immediately ducks out the the way of the archers to heal while Ivel runs up to the stream alone. Alessio tries to get to him in time to heal but unhasted and ill prepared there was no way it could happen. Because of the death Ivel runs back to the barracks unwilling to play. This servers PvM is very challenging. No one character can run in the middle of hope alone and hope to survive.

Its something like this that makes me less apt to see your points about xp.

Later 3 others joined Alessio and did well in condors.

Are you saying a cleric failed to manage the run through hope alone ?
No wonder people have problems with xp

silbador wrote:
Why the most part of the server are afk chars?
Because is safer dont die and gain 2K every day than try to make trips.

I do not agree. Most of the server is afk for a myriad of reason. The afking is however a downward spiral in that when player A sees all other players afk he goes afk and on down the line.

Haha I knew you were going to say something like that Rugi. Alright alright. Any non cleric running into the middle of hope alone stands little chance. Better?

Felix, can u turn on the server?

And the final solution of hope canyon is to have chung toto speed xDDD (or veha peluxina speed,
is the same)

..

Since this topic keeps popping up I figured I'd go ahead and throw in my two cents before the whining gets this thing locked again.

First;

Ivelliös Isendel wrote:We are the players telling you the problems and you tell us we are wrong, then you get support from people that are not playing but maintain a presence on the forum.

Do yourself a favor and stop making sweeping generalizations that you speak for the entire player base because quite frankly you don't. At this point only two individuals have spoken out against the system and every time I log into the system there are no less than 13 people logged in. AFK or not 2 does not make a majority by any means. That being said let's see if we can identify some problems from this mess of a thread.

Problem: The server is "dying".
Proposed Solution: Raise the XP for kills and reduce the XP loss for self-resurrection.

I fail to see how increasing XP values does anything for new players. They will still be lost and woefully outmatched when leaving town. Death will still happen when they encounter the modules highly tuned and purposefully difficult mobs. Increasing XP will only make it easier for long standing players to reach level 40 once they've overcome the initial difficulty of the early levels. While an XP increase will have an inverse effect for seasoned veterans making the journey to 40 all the easier. If you want an easier road to level 40 just come out and say it. Don't prostrate yourself like you're speaking out for the new player because it's thinly veiled at this point and I for one don't buy it. I've played a character for less than a month and got him to level 30. In my experience that's a pretty fast character progression.

Let's face it folks the module was built to be difficult. That fact alone will turn people away at the door. But for those who have been playing NWN since 2004 the challenge presented here may be just what they're looking for. Moth intended to force players to cooperate to survive on this server by enforcing a harsh penalty upon death while soloing (the orb) only reinforces this notion. If soloing gets you killed don't beg for more XP but get a group together next time. This is not as tough as some are making it seem. I've played on this server for a little over a month and by week two I had come to realize that peak hours for active players was in the evening Eastern Standard Time. Like myself people were logging in after work to play for maybe and hour or two to enjoy the game.

NWN doesn't have the hundreds of thousands of players that it used to. The server isn't dying so much as the game is dying. It can't compete with free to play MMO's and when you have to pull a player base from a few thousand at most you can't expect a packed house every night. While there may not be the thousands of servers there used to be either there are certainly enough out there that people can find what they're looking for. If Anphillia Genesis isn't for them then that's ok too because that just happens to be the nature of the game at this point.

Are there things that can be improved on this server? Certainly and I'd love to discuss them but at this point every time this topic is brought up it dwindles down into a flame war with a few players unwilling to accept the fact that their proposed solution isn't the one accepted by the current staff.

You want to know the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

" I fail to see how increasing XP values does anything for new players. "

I dont fail to see it. The server becomes attractive to new players if they feel that here
can improve instead of be one more of those thousands of servers that they are all simmilar.
For example, the reason that got me stay here was the high xp (i came when an impossible
gave 300 xp). Probably, if i entried now with new chars, without gear, gold, experience in the
server, etc, i didnt stay more than 2 days.
We are not asking 4 the old 300 xp by impossible, we are asking to double the actual 80 to 150
(and in epic, 100 to 200). Another option is to delete the death xp and maintain the orb (to
subsidize the groups) or halven both death penalties.
The fact is that we need more people, and we need to progressively end with the afking.

" I've played a character for less than a month and got him to level 30 "

Can u tell us what build do u have?
Is a pure caster?

..

This would be really good stuff. Its a shame it's not in character....

Commence the predicted flame war...

Ivelliös Isendel wrote:It is so funny that the people I never see on always chime in like they are on all the time. I am online constantly if I am not at work.

Congratulations, would you like a medal? You've won oh great and mighty player of the interwebs.

Ivelliös Isendel wrote:Bastion, that was an awfully lofty message for someone who has never posted in this forum. Perhaps it is that you are friends with the other person who across all his characters shared the same distaste for leadership and organization of any kind, he is our newest DM.

If my message is "lofty" it's only being seen that way because of your apparent lack to see any opinion other than your own as having merit. What I gather is you think that by knowing members of the DM team I am skewed towards their agenda because of some personal reasons? Get over yourself, I refuted why your idea was terrible and would have unforeseen consequences not because of some "siding with management" mentality.

Ivelliös Isendel wrote:So do not tell me that the Dms are not chosen based on how much they hate people having fun, with the exception of Felix I think it is overwhelming obvious.

Do you really think a DM would be chosen because he actively wants to keep people from having fun? Misrepresenting people to make your own position seem stronger is the weakest and most unacceptable form of rhetoric. If you've got to rely on straw man tactics to prove your point you're just deluding yourself.

Ivelliös Isendel wrote:The leaders here DO NOT care about the players at large, neither do you Bastion, you are only for your own little clique, which is bias. I care for every player that we had briefly because no one else did. I do not mind being on ship while it sinks, that is the grand design is it not? You sycophantic and mindless masses care only for what is behind your nose. You are not the only people that play this game, but it is obvious that you want to be..

Is that the pot calling the kettle black? Can I just go ahead and assume that anyone who disagrees with you is an enemy of the masses? The cross you choose to bare for the innocents coming to enjoy our fair server is so noble...wait I think I just threw up in my mouth. Everyone knows why you want more XP. You've had difficulty getting to level 40 since you play during European hours making soloing the only effective way to earn XP other than AFK leeching. The server simply wasn't designed to be mastered by a solo character, that's a fact. You want level 40 but have died numerous times in the process and had to suffer the apparently inconsolable XP loss that entails. So here comes poor Ivellios lamenting for the masses when really you're just out for yourself just as you claim I am. Seriously, did that hurt because it looks like it stings?

If you want to have an open discussion on how to make this server more appealing to new players then open a new thread and come to it with an open mind because quite frankly your attitude and this whole tough guy mentality fostered by the anonymity of the internet isn't getting you anywhere.

By the way, it's spelled psychopathic. *Sycophantic works as intended*

Bastion wrote:Commence the predicted flame war...

I'd rather we didn't.

Let's keep this discussion on track, folks. We're here to discuss the state of the community and measures we can take to improve it. What we're not here to discuss is why Poster X is a ninny or how Group X is comprised solely of poopy heads.

Bastion, which trolling dmplayer are u?
meh, whatever-
the first post made by Ivel gave me a strong feeling that his fate would end here; feeling alone, outmatched and rejected once he fleed to the dms for help.
i wish i had some concreat sugestion on how to save the server but i dont.
felix talked about lvl 40 incentives. that might be something to focus your energy on?
make the mod feel less stagnat? there are more or less no additions made to the mod as far as adventuring and exploroing goes.
only tweaks and ooc addiotns have been made.

maybe actually adding something to the mod, i.e MODDING, would help?
and by that i dont mean slowing turning it into exodus.i mean leaving the core of this mod (which is the reason we play here) and adding new exciting areas a la condors.
more loot would be cool too.

Ivel I emphasis with you and how you can see

DM Sage wrote:That's okay. It's up to them to find something that better fits the gaming experience they are looking for.

as basically translating to “don’t like it? Leave.” or something similair.
However its unfair to the other DM/staff to view this as their universal opinion.
Also keep in mind some forum posters have played before, there is not much difference in the xp/gameplay between now and a month ago. (right?)

Sage has his own opinion and perhaps speaks for themselves.
In my opinion it seemed that this server was not really too focused on Roleplay. If rp was there, great, if players didn’t/couldn’t rp they were still welcome to stay and play. Of course that’s not to say attempts to improve rp weren’t made, but the main focus always seemed to be on PvP or bug fixes/etc.
I know Felix has nearly always shown concern for keeping lvl 40’s around, instead of them disappearing by making alts.
If the DM/Staff was that focused on having things their way then rules would be put in place to have limits on the amount of alts, but they aren’t so alts galore.

Ivelliös Isendel wrote:I'm done with pointless conversations, this forum is a joke

It royally sucks to turn to a dm/staff member with a complaint and having the reply “Make a forum post.” Or “It’s just a game.”. Its understood in game the “make a forum post” is a polite way of possibly enforcing the use of the forum, its no guarantee of a player’s voice being heard or wishes being granted.
In my opinion, more or less suggested changes to the server made via forum posts have served to be no more than exposing ideas that were debated and in the end never implemented.
(I apologize in the case that I am mistake and a player’s complain of a certain aspect to the server was taken and implemented, I can’t remember if there ever was.)
-So to think that making a post on the forum could make a difference could easily seem as a deceitful empty promise. At least thats how i felt when i was playing and disliked how things were...

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DM Sage wrote:Maybe we should take timed XP away. That would force people to have to go out to gain XP.

This made me giggle… In a post about increasing xp as a solution to an issue… a solution focused on taking away a form of xp gain is purposed. ^-^
-Lack of auto-xp could force people to have to do a lot of things really.

I, at this time, recall many different ways where players would do things deemed ‘dishonorable/bad/lame’ to compensate for the slow xp gain.
-Boss hunting, many diff forum posts of players complaining of areas full of mobs and lacking a boss. (Semi surprised the solution to lower the xp on bosses hasn’t been suggested/implemented, lol…)
-Magic nut hunting, complains of ninja looters (however it’s unfair to claim the main purpose was for the magicnuts/xp and could possibly be unrelated entirely.)
-Banking XP, remaining lvl 6 to continually gain high amounts of xp from goblins and hand in quest items per reset.

I recall speaking/complaining to a DM about the fact of witnessing two players go from lvl 6 to lvl 30. I tried to argue the point that this screams of desperation and proof that xp is so low that people have to exploit for progression.
I recall being told many different things; “It’s just a game”, “They’re not very smart, they should have pg’d at lvl 20ish in such-and-such a place instead”, “It wasn’t really against the rules so it can’t be punished.”
(these quotes aren’t verbatim but still retain the essential meaning of the original message, the first one is word for word though…).

On another note, I got a possible compromising idea!
So there are many difference reasons for leaching timed xp.
-Players focused on crafting instead of running out to pg, progress a little.
-Players who actually sleep instead of not sleeping… progress a little.
-Players sat at the campfire and wait for roleplay opportunity while they multitask on comp. (heck I know I’d be watching tv while roleplaying/fighting things from time to time.)
-Players who just die and rather not try and gain back the xp loss. ***

*** Suppose there was a way for players to gain back half of their PvE death xp? (other than going out to grind for it and risk the chance of losing the same amount again.)
A sort of 50/50 chance of either getting back half or getting back nothing.
This could soften the concequences of PvE death without turning it into 'no-big-deal' from removing deathpenalties alltogether.
It just seems the basic view point of either side is;
'Experienced Players'; They should improve their game play to cope with this mod's challenege.
'New Players'; The mod should accommodate us by increasing the xp.
So with the option of regaining some lost death xp -without risking losing more... it retains the challenege of gaining lvls.. with a soft cuision for those that avoid death less easily... in place to give them a chance.

I still say quadruple the AFK xp. You'd have more AFKers which leads to higher server pop which leads to more new people who can be talked to and touched by whatever players or DMs are active at the time. Also you'd be increasing XP gain, and you would indirectly be decreasing the death loss since staying up overnight with you computer on afk would more than easily make up for dying.

And before anyone jumps on me for being a non-player... yes, I AFK my characters to level them. Why? I chose to play here for the challenging team PvP environment and the occasional challenge of Condors and running areas. I could probably run the caves to level myself effortlessly due to time spent on the original Genesis and Exodus, but I prefer not to. When there are people on to RP with, or people on to PvP against, I will play. Until that time, I'll soak XP.

TheeVals wrote:Its understood in game the “make a forum post” is a polite way of possibly enforcing the use of the forum, its no guarantee of a player’s voice being heard or wishes being granted.

I don't ask players to post here simply to enforce forum use. I ask players to post here to ensure that their concerns are heard and addressed. In game, I am absolutely inundated with complaints/suggestions/requests. If I responded to every one of them, I'd never have the time to play.

As you've noted, bringing discussion here is by no means a guarantee that an idea will be implemented. Generally speaking, an idea will be implemented if it 1) sounds like a good idea, 2) fits the server's vision, and 3) can be done with a reasonable amount of work. In these regards, staff ideas and player ideas are measured in exactly the same way. The reason you see more changes that were proposed by staff members (rather than by players) is because, statistically speaking, the average idea tends to be proposed by staff. This should come as no surprise, as the types of players that consistently propose good ideas are also the types of players that become staff.

We are, however, lacking builders right now, as those of us who muck about in the toolset haven't been around due to varying real life circumstances. From a player's perspective, I understand that this can be remarkably frustrating, since everyone wants to see things happen. Unfortunately, the reality is that all of us have real lives and stuff, and sometimes that gets in the way.

And to (briefly) address some other bits:

TheeVals wrote:-Boss hunting, many diff forum posts of players complaining of areas full of mobs and lacking a boss. (Semi surprised the solution to lower the xp on bosses hasn’t been suggested/implemented, lol…)

This was implemented with the very first update that we did. Every creature was given a significant boost to XP rewarded, with the exception of exceptionally high CR creatures (i.e. bosses).

TheeVals wrote:-Banking XP, remaining lvl 6 to continually gain high amounts of xp from goblins and hand in quest items per reset.

This has been fixed, too.

TheeVals wrote:Suppose there was a way for players to gain back half of their PvE death xp?

Such as?

J. Persinne wrote:We are, however, lacking builders right now, as those of us who muck about in the toolset haven't been around due to varying real life circumstances.

i dont mean to sound ungrateful here,but what exactly has been BUILT?as far as i can tell nothing.no new things to experience have beem added in 6 month or however long this server has been running.

all i see are stats ability spell tweaks and a /command system ripped from nwvault.not to say merging a system into a mod isnt a lot of work.

balance changes are all well and good and i know that it is more accessable to modify.it does enhance the experience to have spells that work and are balanced it does not ADD anything.
this mod needs new content!as simple as that.
i understand that this is the tallest order a modder can get.but i feel its needed to keep this place alive.

I've DM'ed for many years. Why? Because I enjoy creating gaming experiences that others can enjoy and receive a sense of fullfillment out of it when they do. Where does the opinion come from that I don't want people to have fun because I'm not in agreement with raising XP? In my limited time DM'ing on this particular server, my time has been spent running quests and NPC interactions for any players I could find that were not AFK'ing.

by TheeVals on Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:34 pm

Ivel I emphasis with you and how you can see
DM Sage wrote:
That's okay. It's up to them to find something that better fits the gaming experience they are looking for.

as basically translating to “don’t like it? Leave.” or something similair.
However its unfair to the other DM/staff to view this as their universal opinion.

You failed to quote the previous paragraph I wrote prior to making that comment. Different players are looking for different things. A player that is looking for pure action and a easy/quick path to level 40 probably isn't going to be happy here. Neither will someone looking purely for a social RP enviroment. Currently, we are positioned as a RP PW server (that is where we are located on GameSpy). When comparing our server to others, we are on the high end for XP and level gain. Again, I think we need to collectively sit back as a community and decided what type of server we are gaming on. If we are attempting to build a RP PW, I see nothing wrong with the level progression process for players. Now, if we are going for PvP server or Action server, it's worth discussing raising XP or just starting everyone out at level 40.

Not every decision will be a popular one. I don't know the secret to success, but the secret to failure is trying to please everyone. You can only beat a dead horse so long. If you are unhappy and fail to find enjoyment out of a "game", then stop playing it or find someplace that meets your needs as a player. I am not trying to be mean spirited about that. It's just not worth getting so worked up over.

by TheeVals on Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:34 pm
DM Sage wrote:
Maybe we should take timed XP away. That would force people to have to go out to gain XP.

This made me giggle… In a post about increasing xp as a solution to an issue… a solution focused on taking away a form of xp gain is purposed. ^-^

This thread turned into much more then the discussion of increasing XP. Conversation also entailed the current state of the server and the problems we are facing in building a player base. Many seem to agree that AFK'ing has become an issue. I offered the easiest solution to the issue. I've never been afraid to speak openly. From my standpoint, I see the following as our major challenges:

1. Major Lag Issues: We have a good linux set-up. We are just experiencing a rough couple of weeks and need to get this problem addressed.

2. Lack of Identity as a PW: What is our emphasis and what type of player are we trying to attract?

3. DM Staff: There is currently only a small staff in place. This makes it difficult to interact with all players, promote RP, and build new areas to keep things fresh.

4. AFK'ing: Discussed in depth in previous posts.

When you post here your posts are taken in consideration. Its not feasible to have two people post they want a change and for change immediately to happen. We want to make sure that the majority want change and right now with xp that doesn't seem to be the case. That doesn't mean that we are not discussing other things to tone down some over powering aspects of the mobs here.

J I know that the high CR creatures have been not given a boost in xp but currently it is still well worth it to only boss hunt as a high level in low level areas. Perhaps we could somehow target someone who is much higher than the level range for a particular area and greatly reduce the xp given from bosses for them.

Myra after your old post which informed me of those characters who banked xp the staff discussed the issue and came to the conclusion that those characters were going to be banked levels for doing that. When you spoke to one DM you got their single opinion on the matter. That is why we say when on the client that you should post about it as no one DM solely runs the show. Since we made that decision those characters have no logged in to receive their delevel.

To summarize you are being heard on the forums you just cant expect change to happen at a fast rate currently and you have to understand you are speaking for yourself here. No one person represents the player base. The more people add ther 2 cents the more of a grasp we get on what the player base wants.

Vladimir wrote:this mod needs new content!as simple as that.
i understand that this is the tallest order a modder can get.but i feel its needed to keep this place alive.

I don't disagree with you.

For my part, however, I signed on with the team to help with feature type stuff. Scripting, very bare bones conversations (mostly to facilitate scripting), things like that. Areas fall outside of my purview; I'm simply not very good at making them. I'm willing to concede that this is a failing of mine.

We are aware that things have become a touch too "stagnant" for some, and are actively taking steps to rectify the problem. We hope to bring new builders on to the team soon. This, however, will take at least some small amount of time.

Here is Scrambles take:
I enjoy the "toughness" of the server, or should I say the lack of toughness because this is definitely the easiest server to level up on that I have played. I think that where the xp is at right now is great, not too little so it takes you 2 months to get to lvl 8 but not too much to where you can reach lvl 40 in a couple weeks. I think what I am enjoying most about this server is the journey to reaching lvl 40, once I get there all I can really do is either PVP or create a new character, not really much to look forward to after getting a few characters to lvl 40 and waiting for the opposite faction to get on so you can go pvp. Reaching lvl 40 is part of the game, and I would prefer not increasing xp because in doing so you are robbing us of that part of the game. I agree with Sage and if this process of reaching lvl 40 is too frustrating for players, then they are welcome to find another server that can bypass this step or cheapen it. I enjoy the current DM staff and thank them for their hard work on this server. I do not like the personal attacks on other players going on here. This is just a game and each player has their own opinion and has the right to share their opinion. All of these accusations on other players seems to be suggesting that perhaps the xp issue is not the real reason players are leaving...

DM Sage wrote:You failed to quote the previous paragraph I wrote prior to making that comment.

I quoted what I felt necessary for the message I had to make, sorry if you dislike being quoted out of context… its not like I was arguing against you or something.
4-gives meeh? xD

DM Sage wrote:Different players are looking for different things. A player that is looking for pure action and a easy/quick path to level 40 probably isn't going to be happy here. Neither will someone looking purely for a social RP enviroment. Currently, we are positioned as a RP PW server (that is where we are located on GameSpy). When comparing our server to others, we are on the high end for XP and level gain. Again, I think we need to collectively sit back as a community and decided what type of server we are gaming on. If we are attempting to build a RP PW, I see nothing wrong with the level progression process for players. Now, if we are going for PvP server or Action server, it's worth discussing raising XP or just starting everyone out at level 40.

I happened to agree with the idea that a player should search out a server they enjoy playing on. However anphillia is addictive and in such an old game like nwn it’s rare to find an anphillia that suits your desired needs.

I also double if not triple agree to the fact that things need to be decided and officially stated by the staff as a group what they want this server to be.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, -but- if my memory serves correctly; I recall always seeing Felix stating that players are permitted/encouraged to take part in server development/changes from the start of the new hosting.
If the staff wants to change this approach to a strict "this is how thing are and its not open for debate" type of setup... I'm sure they'd say so.
Thats why players don't need to leave if this server doesn't suit their needs, its open for debate/discussion to change (again no gaurentees...).

Gets semi confusing if two opposing vibes get sent out... xD
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J. Persinne wrote:

TheeVals wrote:Suppose there was a way for players to gain back half of their PvE death xp?

Such as?

The player can complete a task dependent on their lvl, in the fugue plague, this can be rather rpish -if its desired to make the server more rp based like Sage menchions.
Or they could face off against their evil clone pveish style but their defeat doesn't end in more xp loss.
The context of the mission/quest behind regaining half of death xp is up to the staff to decide, since it has to be relatively fair, it can be based off level and class/classdestribution.

just so long as failure of attempting to regain xp doesn't result in another loss.

I do not have any specific creative idea in mind for this however.


just seems like a good compromised solution...
rather than the option of keeping things the same, which will cause; players to keep dieing and complaining vs the 'other' players that know what their doing... telling them to 'shush/improve gameplay'.
Or drasticly changing things to the extreme, where; those players still die easily but can level up easily and 'other' players get easily over 5 lvl 40 alts-pvp powerbuilds. (which might evidently lead to the 'other players' to then complain about pvp... but thats just me considering the possibilities/worse case scenerio...)
(^ if the above categories offend you please ignore them, i meant no offense...
why are people getting so easily offended btw? gosh! xD)

Scrambles The Death Deale wrote:All of these accusations on other players seems to be suggesting that perhaps the xp issue is not the real reason players are leaving...

*sagely nods* i'm begining to wonder that too.

I love how everyone deems my suggestion as so ridiculous I don't think anyone has even taken time to comment on it.

It made me giggle... xD
(If afk xp got quadrupled I'd log back on as Myra to try and get her to level 60. -Since she is techniquely already 52ish by xp amount.)