Clerical Balor

Alright so I was Sooo looking forward to getting this lvl 38 new Death Domain summon, but once i got it and started looking it over I have a couple problems with it. First being it isn't an upgrade what so ever. His AC and AB are both lower he doesnt cast anything good on you anymore (mindblank and undeaths foe were previously casted and no longer now) and he's bulky as can be. I was wondering if there was a reason for the downgrade or is it like this for a reason and is there a different one when you hit 40 or is this it ? The only thing better about this summon is he casts spells but even then his DC is so low and at level 38 all the baddies save on them so ... help ?

I complained about it too in the past.
It has +6 planar trident though!! (with no vorpal -.- )

Yeah thats cool and all but a lvl 40 summon in a domain that is specifically designed for this summon you would think would be stronger. Is there any way this is getting looked at for an update ever or no ?

Not sure if serious...

It has 25% physical resistances and a +6 weapon. He packs 2 mass heals and 2 heals - which is awesome.

It's also better than the epic-feat summons, by quite a margin. (Even discounting its spellcasting. It's also with you as a very good summon all your PC's life.

It is even on a par with, if not better than, epic sd/bg/pm summons.

I do take the point though, I think we should nerf the one before.

I actually agree with SeXy_SnipER here, even if I designed these summons.

The sense of achivement and progression is a fleeting one and it is as much what you can see as it is about what you know.
This is very very important.
It part of the motivation and part of the illusion we all buy into when we immersing ourselves in these types of games.

There is no doubt that the Balor is a superior summon, however just by looking at the character sheet it might not be totally obvious.
The information ingame isn't all that good and clear to someone who isn't all that knowledgeable about the mechanics behind the game.



I think the Balor should have higher base stats, even if it is just 1 AC here and 1 AB there.
He should also have the same buffs, plus the other extra spells he already has.
This won't upset the balance in any noticeable way and the player will see and feel that the Balor is stronger.

We should also keep in mind that not all player will visit the forums and read this thread (or any other source of information), and as such won't know that it has more prowess in other aspects of its design.
Since these two particular summons more or less have the same role, the Balor should be stronger on paper and stronger in reality.

-TheMothMan

Kind of same topic... Just a quick question
At what levels do BG and PM summons change up? And what are they?
Is it specific to the BG or PM class lvl or overall lvl of char?
Did some forum searching but did not see this posted or I missed it, feel free to slap my head and point me to the forum post ..

I'm not saying that the Balor needs to be able to solo the Pyre or anything like that ... but you have to admit 39 buffed AB and 1-8+7 with a 19-20 x2 damage is weak in any aspect.. That would not even be able to hit a lvl 40 char, when a lvl 22 fighter based char solo'ed my balor fully buffed, its bad. I understand he has damage immunities and such, he still dies quick and doesnt do much damage.



Looking at it now ... It almost seems as though the +6 on his weapons doesnt take in account ... his Str mod is +7

I agree, progression is needed.

However making an already great summon, even better, is not the best way of going about it. Especially considering that summons that are worse than it, currently require more investment.

Making the one before worse, is a great way of doing it, no? That way, other summons don't need to be buffed!

I don't see how it's not alot of work ... I could take a damage immunity domain or whatnot and use create greater undead spell which I get for free and have a better summon at 40 ...and not have to go pure cleric

I look at it this way;
In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter if the Balor has a few more AC or AB in either direction?
It doesn't matter much that the Balor has less AB or AC than the Pit Shadow. It wouldn't matter much if the Balor had one higher or equal the Pit Shadow in AB or AC.

What does matter is the sense of "becoming stronger". And as your summons feel stronger, so does your PC.

I see no risk for the overall balance of the MOD's PvP or PvE if this Pit Balor gains an AB or two.

Sure, you can nerf the Pit Shadow, but that's no fun.
That feels like a punishment or something and that's just lame.

The Balor is very strong, as he should be, but he is not too strong.
Now if the Pit Balor indeed was overpowered, or would risk becoming it, I would bring out the nerf-gun on the Pit Shadow and Balor.

-TheMothMan

I believe the Balor is too weak as well considering the investment.

Was looking to see if rather than focusing on one class summons you take all Classes that have them.. That is why I asked about the other class summons..

Professor Plum wrote:Not sure if serious...

It is even on a par with, if not better than, epic sd/bg/pm summons.

and lay them side by side, if they all have about the same + or - abilities then no need to mess with them, or you will have to revisit all of them..
I have a lvl 38 char, 28 of it PM, my summons did not change, stayed same from 30 to 38 lvl so far (Reason I asked question).. from the looks of it that Balor you get would wipe the floor with my summons..
Make changes with caution..

Whoisthere wrote:

and lay them side by side, if they all have about the same + or - abilities then no need to mess with them, or you will have to revisit all of them..
I have a lvl 38 char, 28 of it PM, my summons did not change, stayed same from 30 to 38 lvl so far (Reason I asked question).. from the looks of it that Balor you get would wipe the floor with my summons..
Make changes with caution..

Here's the deal with that as a PM or BG you get "other" extreme benefits to your character, I went pure cleric death domain with the one and only benefit is having this summon be awesome. A pure clerics epic summon should trump yours for the fact you get the other benefits of your class. And the Flesh Dragon and Slicer at highest level would prolly destroy the clerics balor.

Here is another thing ... Why would I need a summon that casts all the same spells as I do anyhow? Some sort of tank would be much better suited for a Pure clerics lvl 40 summon

Whoisthere wrote:Kind of same topic... Just a quick question
At what levels do BG and PM summons change up? And what are they?
Is it specific to the BG or PM class lvl or overall lvl of char?
Did some forum searching but did not see this posted or I missed it, feel free to slap my head and point me to the forum post ..

Its specific to only that class level not over all charcter level.
PM Summons become Dragon flesh at 20 PM. If you go 30 PM you get some undead archers to go along with the Dragon Flesh.
BG I am unsure about. I know they get the Slicer summons but as I remember him he was kind of weak.

Clerics are far from a neglected class.. You argue that a PM and BG have a decent pet and other class abilities, but what about a sorc or wiz that gets no pet? The balance is not all in the extras.

Personally, considering the PM does not qualify for any DM Noted epic gear and has the majority of their magic resisted or immune by a great many creatures it makes sense within their role to me that they have the strongest of all summons.

As for BGs, they have a very good pet considering some other class features but it does not compare with some others and its buffs are also less useful than the shrieka before it(remember the best BG pet takes an additional epic feat)

I can not speak much to specific stats on summons but I know a pure 40 death cleric has never had issues with being too weak in the past.

The only point I wanted to make was it is hard to just make changes to one summons without looking at all of them and just use caution if changes are made, take the player out of the picture, one player can have a lvl 40 death cleric build one way (Skills, feats, ect..) other player can have the same class and choose to build it way different, good or bad the player class is not the question here it is strictly the summons, the player has no choice to choose the skills, feats, spells, ect.. completly up to the static build that is set..

Wizard has no pet?

More on the subject - Death Domain cleric doesn't equal having teh bestest roxxor summon that can own the entire island.
You get tons of phantasmal killer spells(normal+meta), which in combination with destruction and implosion makes you literally death machine.

In my opinion, epic pit balor is already one of the best summons there is, you don't like it, don't take death domain.
Learn how to use it and you will see it's an OP summon, especially in pvp.

Btw. taking a domain just so you could get a summon hoping it would be awesome is just...stupid.

SeXy_SnipER wrote:

Here's the deal with that as a PM or BG you get "other" extreme benefits to your character, I went pure cleric death domain with the one and only benefit is having this summon be awesome. A pure clerics epic summon should trump yours for the fact you get the other benefits of your class. And the Flesh Dragon and Slicer at highest level would prolly destroy the clerics balor.

You're being rather disingenuous here. Pure clerics get tons of benefits that PM or BG don't get. For one thing, you get another domain, for another you get all of the bonus DC and bonus spells, you get everything that goes along with being a cleric (the spells which have been enhanced significantly, the armor, the turn undead).

"I don't care it's an OP class! I want stronger balor $%#^$%!!!!!!!"

In my opinion, in general going pure class should be rewarded. However, I was surprised cleric can get a summon on par with PM.

But I think most would agree going pure pm is a bigger investment than pure cleric. You gain some ac (but cannot wear armour), but lose (next to crit immunity); spellpower, ab (lowest ab class), versatility etc.

In conclusion i believe the pm summon should be the strongest summon, just for balance sake.

PM's are very different here. You still gain necromancy "spell power". Also, you gain a lot of ac - a hell of a lot.

PM's and Clerics are already rewarded for going pure. See MothDC!