Immun agein stunn!!!!

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Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Tempera on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:04 pm

Allright..I dont usely whine about ANYTHING on this server!!! But COME ON!!! Whats the deal with the immun ageins stunn spell?? I can accept that rdd dragons and PM are immune, but a SPELL!!! Why not make a spell that make us immun agein KD and sneak attc or please make us immun agein critt when we're at it and throw in and all kind of other shitt!!!! Sorry to say this, but if this spell isent remove, im leaving.

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  TheeVals on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:52 pm

Are you talking about mindblank?
I know it protects vs the stunning affect of the mindblast of the mindflayer form of a shifter. However monk's stunning fist stll affects a mindblanked character. xD
I'm not sure...


High discipline skill = immunity to KD...
High listen/spot skill = immunity to sneak attack (unless you don't focus on the attcker.)
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  -terenee- on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:11 am

Or a free rebuild for those player who have wasted their time under assumptions that are no longer valid.

I understand the the need for balance but I would think putting a cap on stunning fist would be more reasonable then making a low level buff assay a monks primary special attack.

Personally I think it would be more balancing and fair to remove scythes from the mod then stunning fist
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Wordack on Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:14 am

Hes on about the new update they have made a spell stop stunning fist work however the duration is short.

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Professor Plum on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:21 am

Every disabling or instant death effect has a preventative measure.

This is because a disabling effect is ~90% of a death effect.

Use a stim, or a mords scroll. If you hadn't noticed the immunity is high up on the breach list.
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Tempera on Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:40 am

Tought hige fort was "apreventative measure" ageins stunn. What about immun ageins timestopp? And crippling strike is also a disabling effect that can cuse death?

And yeah, I know its hige on the breach list an all. But first of all it sucks for the pure monks and those without rogue lvls to not be able to use scrolls. Useing stim/scrolls means we have to go out of sneak befor we can attc that give the mage/cleric and all those who use the scrolls/sequenser the int to timestopp/hell/kd/run of and all that.

It really sucks that every build on the server now can be immun ageins stunn. I know many of you like the change but im sure you all would hate to see you're build getting nerfed for nothing.

As for everything I'll give it a chance since Im to addicted to NWN, but please consider it if stunningfirst gets useless or let me make a new build.

Thanks

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Herbaliz on Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:56 am

40 turns for a pure caster doesn't seem short to me

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Tempera on Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:04 am

Do you hate Kelin Moth/Felix/DM. MAkeing a second lvl spell that last for turns, is EOF and can be casted on friends immunto stunn ,feels like a innsulting ageins my build Sad.

WHat about making a item that can remove paraliz. Kelin have the scrolls to counter Deo and if ppl care for others in PVP they know how to use it like heal. Than I still have a chance to sneak/stunn. Tested the breach and yeah, it goes of really easy and mord have a EOF that breach good. Still dont like the immun ageins stunn for turns on a lvl 2 spell!!!!!


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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  TheMothMan on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:25 am

Tempera, friend, take a deep breath and relax.

First off, making it a low level spell benefits the one trying to Stun.
Just think about it for a second.
A low level spell means it's "weak", as in it's easy to Dispel (if we ignore the fact that it's Breachable too for the moment).
It also means that if it's cast from a scroll or an item, the Caster Level (Duration and "Dispel-defence") is low. This is also a good thing, from an aggressors PoV.

Sure, Casters will get it earlier as they level up, but which Caster participates in a PvP scenario before they have reach their 9th Spell-Level?
Not many, and probably will not for many levels to come.
I do grant you the fact that, due to it's low level, it will be more accessable in Craft Wand/Brew Potion.

No doubt it's a spell we will see very much of in the PvP to come, with it's ability to both ward against and remove stun-effects (which does not only affects Monk's ability to Stunning Fist someone).

Now when it comes to breaching, that bascially works as follow;
A set number (2 for Lesser Spell Breach, 4 for Greater Spell Breach and so on) of Spell-effects will be removed, in the following order:
    Stone Bones
    Premonition
    Spell Mantle
    Protection Domain Power
    Shadow Shield
    Stoneskin
    Etheral Visage
    Remove Paralysis

And so on...up to 40 different Spell-effects.


As you can see, it's in the 8th place.
If you use the Stim-item, you 4th use will remove the Remove Paralysis-spell - GARANTEED!
If you can get a hold of Greater Spell Breach, two uses will remove it.
Mordenkainen's requires two uses too.
This is all assuming they have all the buffs above Remove Paralysis currently on.
Like a worse case scenario from a Stunners PoV.
They probably won't; in which case it would be removed even sooner.

This could of course happend even sooner still with a Dispel from a Spell/Scroll/Item or Dispel-On-Hit Weapon, especially if the spell has been applied from an Item.

The nature of DnD's system is what it is, either something lands (like a Stunning Fist), or it doesn't.
End of story.
There is no real middle ground.
If you get Stunned for 4 Rounds in PvP, with no one nearby to free you, you are most likely dead.
Or a Paralyze.
Or something else that makes the Player unable to free themselves.
Kinda lame really.
We try to do what we can do not make thing this black and white, but the game engine and the ruleset are fighting back. Smile

I am totally making excuses here, but it's the truth.
This is how the game currently works and unless we instigate a HUGE remake of all effects, immunities, abilities, rulesets, classes (basically rebuild the MOD from the ground up), it's the gameplay we are more or less stuck with.

The only saving grace here is that it's not a 1v1 game. You have teammates. Trying to save them is almost always worth it.
Keep a tight formation and watch eachothers backs!

-TheMothMan
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Immune to Stun

Post  UndyingKnight on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:59 am

LOVE it!! Hurrrrrah, finally!! Smile)

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Tempera on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:59 am

Why did you have to say that it could be made into pots and wands Sad, I'll give it a chance and see how it goes, but if I think my build is useless with that change I hope I can re-make my char into a smiter? (please dont make a immune to smite change to just becuse ppl die from it)

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  -terenee- on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:54 am

I have a level 40 wizard that I use for defense every time Cleaven comes, his focus is necromancy and even though he has mord and wail at DC 54 (same Dc as my stunning fist) he has never gotten a PvP kill.. Why?

Death Ward.

This makes a whole set of feats half as useful, if that.


Last edited by Isendel on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  I Almost on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:05 am

Its the same for Cleric who focus on Psionic mass concussion, mind blank saves all. But now with this new spell you will have 2 type of protections from it(probably other spells to). not sure how that is going to work out though, geuss we'll see ^^
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  -terenee- on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:17 am

I agree, except that Psionic Mass Concussion is one spell of a school, every other spell of that school is still focused.

Stunning Fist has as many feats focusing on what is essentially one spell (ability) and now has more defensive spells warding against it than any other single spell by itself.

Adding a new immunity was too much.. adding a cap to the DC is more appropriate.

I wonder how many people (that admins care for opinions enough to ruin players' build without warning or choice) complained to losing in PvP to this ability before it was changed..

I have sure complained about a lot that was eventually changed, but never so fast and when these changes happened the fact that I was made a pariah for fighting for them was not factored and I received no commendation for the suggestion.. IE; Less Death Exp, Easier Mobs, more DMs, more and new items, more and new areas.

I do not mean to sound arrogant here but I have had many valid suggestions to the server and before my suggestions were implemented most of the people commenting on this forum were not playing here or on 'a break' ...the server was much, much lower population, I like to think that the changes I suggested did a part to help bring many of you here, or back.

But even though I threw a fit about these changes and later they were given worth by someone with the power to implement them I still feel that my opinion as a player is not valued at all.
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Wordack on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:25 am

Make druidic dragon form immune to stun please ;p And yea I get what your saying isledil it seems random unrequested changes keep happening without need realy if it isnt broke dont fix it. But Monk stun is OP by far its easy to get a high DC and not every character has 10 pm levels 20 monk levels or 50+ fort abd these are the only defnces agaisnt it till this new spell. I do think we should have a spell change discusion and proposed cchanges first ;p Not often but sometimes it can effect someones build.

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Wordack on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:37 am

DM's reduce price of dispell gloves then monk whack them on bam bam dispell it then stun em job done Very Happy

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  I Almost on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:09 am

Well, knowing Felix, plum and moth for a while, i do know, there is always a valid reason for making the changes they do. and before people start arguing about the changes i say we should see how it works, then complain. On the other hand, comming up with solutions to overcome a persons build is what makes the game the must fun (for me atleast)

In short, see what happens. if its to OP, it'll be changed.
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  UndyingKnight on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:46 am

The stun fist of the build is not nerfed or broken, there is just a dispellable immunity for everyone to be able to use now, I'd be more happy with that if I played a monk stun fister rather then the actual DC of it being nerfed.. *shrugs*...Think about if the ability to have immunity to death magic was taken away and you had to come up with a way to play the build you wanted and still find a way to save vs DC clerics throwing around implosions...Besides now theres an even better reason to stay in groups and work as a team if your a monk stun fister rather then just having the second nature to spam stun fist on every hostile person knowing their is no immunity to it... I'd say if your going to change this then just make stun fist waaaay shorter, to where if the first punch a monk throws is a stun fist and it connects then someone with 600+ HP won't be able to be solo killed by the monk before it wears off, thats just abit lame..


Last edited by UndyingKnight on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  SeXy_SnipER on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:30 pm

UndyingKnight wrote:...Think about if the ability to have immunity to death magic was taken away and you had to come up with a way to play the build you wanted and still find a way to save vs DC clerics throwing around implosions... No the DC for stun fist isn't as high as a lvl 40 cleric with ESF in evocation but its still high enough that something is needed to grant a dispellable immunity to it......

DC cap is 54 for everything ... implosions included...
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  UndyingKnight on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:36 pm

Oh heh didn't even notive that on Den's, for some reason I was thinking it was 10 higher haha, but yeah then, that makes it even more senseless then to NOT have some type of dispellable immunity to stun.

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  TheMothMan on Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:30 pm

For the recond, Stunning Fist and everything around it is Hardcoded.
Meaning we can't change anything about it, not duration, DC or anything else.
But even if I could lower the DC, that would just be even more crippling to Monks.

This "fix" was not my idea or my solution, I merely implemented it.
I am however "ok" with this fix, it's not as bad as some of you make it out to be.
It has no negative impact for the Monks ability to PvE, for starters.

In my opinion Aura of Courage (if availible) will still be the best PvP defence against Stunning Fist, just as it was before this fix.
But I suppose the emphasis here is on "if availible".

I would also like to point out, that we never do changes with the pupose of ruining peoples builds.
But we chose to act when we agreed upon that this useage of Stunning Fist was too powerful.

Sadly, someone's hard work will get ruined when some overpowering thing comes to light, and I personally have no issue with giving the "victims" a full compensation and rebuild for their troubles.
But that's not my call.

HOWEVER, had this not been the procedure, you would all be running around in a MOD with a few dozen totally Overpowering builds.
Or more likely you wouldn't be here at all, because it would be an enviroment where only 100% cheesy builds would be viable.

I am fully aware that this might be a small comfort for some of you.

My suggestion to all those negatively affected by this; Give it a try - if you think you PC is crippled plead to Felix for free rebuild (again - not my call).
IF granted, you might find some solace in knowning your next PC don't have to worry about being stun-locked by some 280% Movementspeed game-breaking pinball.

-TheMothMan
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  -terenee- on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:42 pm

TheMothMan wrote:For the recond, Stunning Fist and everything around it is Hardcoded.
Meaning we can't change anything about it, not duration, DC or anything else.
But even if I could lower the DC, that would just be even more crippling to Monks.

Lowering the DC by adding unattainable requirements to the feat Improved Stunning Fist VI + is beyond your manipulation?
(ala Great Smite)
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Tempera on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:48 pm

Still dont like it, but I can see it from you,re point. Tested it a bit and its easy to remove with all kind of breach (to bad mord on ground also hit friends). But its imposible to remove it with my dispell glove when casted by a pure lvl 40!! Can you but breach on the gloves to?? Smile

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Tempera on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:50 pm

And please dont lower the DC, I think I can handel the immunety (even tho is SUCKS) but not if my DC is lowered!

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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

Post  Professor Plum on Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:12 pm

TheMothMan wrote:
I would also like to point out, that we never do changes with the pupose of ruining peoples builds.
But we chose to act when we agreed upon that this useage of Stunning Fist was too powerful.


Well said.

I don't play very much, the majority of my time is on the client and trying to convince Felix / Moth / Other staff that I'm right and they're wrong! Wink

I really hope that no one takes this the wrong way, but it is very hard to be unbiased when you've invested a lot of time into a PC.

There is a culture here, which is not present elsewhere, in which the Dev team seems to need to explain themselves to players. There is a whole host of discussion, calculation and theory building behind the scenes and while I(/we) welcome informed feedback, the norm for this sort of thing is a knee-jerk reaction based upon little more than "You nerfed my PC!" or "Why aren't you out there tackling the REAL problems".

Any changes brought in are to add to the diversity of classes and for the big picture enjoyment of everyone.

I would like to emphasise that informed discussion on these issues is very well received and does action change - whether or not that change is instantaneous.

If someone is able to put forward a compelling argument in which a very circumstantially resistible, almost certain death ability is OK - then I'll certainly listen and promptly add back pre-change harm and Devastating Critical Smile
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Re: Immun agein stunn!!!!

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