Fort PvP balance

Professor Plum wrote:

TheeVals wrote:
People will still afk, but their afking as a non axfell/ non cleaven might not directly affect a player playing axfell/cleaven.

Also the non pvpers can stay at lvl 30 in Ranz rping merchants or pve for hire or something. -Not being wasted space

It would still not solve the problem of one side having more competent pvpers.

How does someone being afk, directly affect a character playing Axfell / Cleaven?

Why are non-pvp'ers wasted space?

We're nearly there in proving it won't solve anything, nearly!

Ignoring things doesn't make them no longer exist.
*Points to all the posts/topics where people express displeasure from AFK'ers*
Maybe they'd have a better chance at explaining to you how it affects them than I, doubt it because you're far too dismissive about things you disgree with.

Only way for you to understand and feel that non-PvP'ers are wasted space is by not pvping as a DM, spawning NPCs and controling a few against a group. Yet instead spending however long it takes to earn 40 levels and equipment and then having at least 5-10 pvp moments where it's your character vs 4-5 players.
It's speed up the process if during those pvps or right before a few ally lvl 40s recently log in and they send you tells but you don't seem them show up at the gates to help defend.
Perhaps after those moments you might think, well.. I can still roleplay with them! Wrong, They are either afk or have priorities of leveling an alt low level character and during pg they don't want to waste time role playing. They also don't want to help a character lower level than them, they rather have a higher level helping them get to 40 so that when pvp happens they don't participate.
oh, and btw... They also don't wast time crafting but might ask for some crafted gear.

Put yourself in that situation, You might not have to ask me how it's a waste of space.


-Luckily time spent not playing helps me forget that this server has those kinds of players. So far taking time off from playing is the only solution I've found helps deal with the fustration.
Seems others are slowly discovering it as well... https://anphgenesis.forumotion.com/t721-ay-eff-kaying

I personally find assaults to be...meh.
Some of the changes made to that other Anphillia Genesis spinn-off were kinda nice.
Some different guards would be cool.
Not sure about the ladders, but I did appriciate there being something to do as a melee char while assaulting.
I just don't think ladders is the answer, never had.

Even so, assaulting is sorta boring IMO.
It never was what I could have been.

Defending can be fun, if you have the right kinda char.

But there are too few willing to actually assault if the teams or even, most players seem to wanna do it when they know the odds are stacked in their favor - which makes it kinda lame.

The PvP part that I like about this MOD is the risk/chace of running into a group of enemy players whenever you're out adventuring.
The type of PvP the MOD was designed for and built around.
The risk of being ganked and jumped by another party as your hack down NPC's keeps things interesting for me.
You have to plan your magic/item usage accordingly.
Not just burn everything you got and rest - only to buff, burn everything you got on the next group of mobs and rest again.

This is where AFKing comes into affect also. Since the information about who is online is always availible, you sorta know if there is a risk of some dangerous PC showing up while you slay mobs.
Since you can't know which are AFK or not (unless you are the type that faction-ghosts), this makes you stay on your toes - assuming there are dangerous enemy PC's online.

This is one of the reasons I would like to the chance-encounter PvP get some attention too.


A brief story about how PvP has evolved during my years of making Anphillia MODs;

When I started on my first Anphillia MOD, Anphillia 3 Faction, I added a third Faction (Ranzington) to the original Anphillia MOD by Vico and Eyesolated(not v2).
I also added tons of new areas and mobs - just for the fun of it.
Like;
"-Oh, lets make a hive with loads of bugs to kill. That'll be fun!"

And it was.
But there was no consideration taken to how this would affect interaction with an enemy player, none what so ever.
Turned out it was a mess.
The island was way too big for chance-encounters, the three factions made PvP confusing (since Ranzington was Friendly with both Cleaven and Axfell).
Ranzington sorta ended up as the Faction for players who didnt wanna PvP, yet they often got caught in the middle the few times PvP actually happend.
Or some Unty from Ranzington would walk up to a Cleaven/Axfell Fort gate and bash it down for a few Magic nuts, which they could do in peace because both Axfell and Cleaven guards were Neutral to Ranzington PC.
Ahh, good times.

At some point towards the end of 3fac Anphs life, a Drow Faction was added aswell - Hostile to all.
This made things even more confusing and PvP turned into something very strange.
Eventually that MOD evolved into Blackheart Anphillia (which was a merge for 3 Faction Anphillia and Anphillia v2), where there were four factions again - but everyone started out at Ranzington (except for Drows).
Then at lvl 15 or whatever, they could decide to join Cleaven, Axfell or remain in Ranzington.
This lead to a very fractured kind of PvP with old allegiances still in effect.
At this point the islands size was huge and the chance/risk of meeting any hostile PC's was very small.
Dont get my wrong, there were not more areas than there is now, they were just so spead out that the actually size of the island became huge.
But now assaulting had become a thing and the PvP foucs shifted toward that instead, with both players and modders putting their time and efforts towards PvP into the assault thing.
Which was fun and easy for everyone involved, at the time.
But I think that aspect has now become kinda stale and washed out.

As Blackheart died out, I began working on Anphillia Genesis (which base is a merge of Anphillia, Anphillia 3 Faction, Blackheart Anphillia and Anphillia v2).
This time around I build it with chance-encounter PvP in mind, both when it came to balancing and the layout of the island.
Ranzington and Drow were removed as playable Factions.
The island became more compact and planned out.
The coast line was removed and Hope Canyon was made much harder, "forcing" raiding parties to take the only feasible route to the enemy fort - Grand Forest.
The number of top-side areas was decreased, while the number of caves and dungeons were increased - making for a more Hub-based layout of the island.
The way Seris island looks is a good example of this - one small topside area leading to many dungeons and caves.
Grand Forest was revamped aswell, basically making it the Grand Central to the various locales on the island.
All of these overhauls were made to encourage and increase the chance/risk of PvP occuring while adventuring.
Which it did for awhile. Chance battles raged across the whole forest, Grand Forest - Center, The Headlands and even into Plains and Rustin Mountain.
Seris island was another place where a lot of chance encounters happend, not to mention Condor's Scream.

But gradually it became more and more about assaults, maybe due to many reaching lvl 40 with their chars, or maybe chance-encounter PvP was too random and chaotic for the main playerbase of the server.

As balance changes were made to all classes (and my vow to not nerf anything unless it was overpowered) made more or less all abilities useful (well almost all), players became stronger and stronger.
Making the guards weaker and weaker in comparison.
To stop the server from being thrown into anarchy every time a high level PC wanted to assault, the guards had to be buffed, really buffed.
Finding a balance between having guards that could fend for themselves without being too strong and guards that weren't way too strong when assisted by friendly PC's, turned out to be very difficult.
This then became the new challenge for the max levelled players, like "something to do" as you got to level 40 with 1 million XP - which was never ever the intention of having the gate guards.

But being a modder you need to adapt and go with the flow of the current playerbase.
Dack, being the serverhost at the time, and his trusted pack of Wolf's realized this and made the Relic system - which I am sure you are all familiar with.
This was the thing that established Assaults as a thing, it was indeed the natural evolution of the MOD.
And however brilliant of an idea it was, it was never something I intended or designed the MOD around initially, yet it was the next logical step.

Now with this history in mind, you should all better understand why assaulting has it flaws and will never be fully satisfactory on this MOD, no matter how many new feature will be added to that end.

TLDR;
The MOD was build for chance-encouter PvP, not Raiding PvP.
So assaults will never been as good as it could be IMO.

-TheMothMan

As I remember Blackheart Moth, there was only Drow and Ranzington, the original Rann Cora that Dev Critting RDD never had a chance to join Cleaven or Axefell. I remember that very fondly, pvp didn't happen very often, but the Drow, when you met them, were scaaaaary. The Underdark was a very twisted and confusing place, the Wolfs worked FOREVER trying to map it out... especially the maze area with the minotaurs.

I think to make Assaulting more interesting and gratifying, you should read my previous post about outposts. Or think about what the Wolfs and myself did with Iron Hold. The IRon Hold master was specifically created to be very strong against the current type of character that was dominating the server to force more variation. Imagine if these outposts forced more diversity and EVERYONE wasn't a pure cleric or a shifter. The problem is... how do you do that? Well, you take what annoys you and could potentially kill a pure cleric in PVP and you make that into NPCs. Plate mages were all the rage when I designed the Iron Hold master... What could slaughter a Plate Mage? A timestopping damage resisting Monk that can catch you flatfooted, punch you real hard while resisting any sheaths you might have up, and chase you down when you think you can run away.

As far as chance encounter PvP goes... I love it. The Drow vs Ranz pvp of Blackheart was all chance encounters. I remember when I was playing Kayla Wolf on Genesis hunting for a group of Axefell that had been roaming the plains, splitting up, getting cleric buffed and catching them with their pants down in the first level of Condors and killing several upper 30 levels. I remember Timothy slaughtering a party trying to get to Lamirs. I also remember getting ganked and how frustrating that can be. You're buffs are wearing thin, you've got one more mob to kill before you can rest, and BOOM... floor. And you think, wow, if I'd have been prepared, I probably could've at least stood a chance at winning that. As I said before, the adrenaline rush of PvP on an Anphillia server is nothing like any other game I've ever played. Or server for that matter, it's just not that fun on Bastions of War because there's not as much risk, not as much time involvement in your character. So yes, I'm here to PvP, but I'm also here for the journey and the RP that builds into that PvP, because that's what makes PvP so exciting. Why did I take my level 26 character yesterday and try to run past a group of 40s assaulting Cleaven's gates to help defend? Because it was a challenge, and because it was fun. Did I make it? No. Could I possibly have made it if I'd equipped a tower shield for 6 more AC instead of not doing that like an idiot? Yes. When I got raised and defended the second time was it awesome? Yes. Totally worth it.

I played blackheart a dev critting wm the drow were scary and damn i loved the pvp. I also played anph 1 and anph 2 the pvp was random and we did assult and killed captin daler it was fun what made it more menaceing was no annoying druid or scout warnings just a gong to bash and tell them if you wanted to ;p Oh and it was a differnt eara more players and none afk. As it stands now it is fun in moderation sometimes more fun sometimes less but still fun

I for one am not much into the whole attacking for the Relic, I like the chance encounter PvP when your out gettting resources or adventuring out into areas with a group.
Best fort attacks where for a reason, someone was taken prisoner or some RP injustice was done, would have fort leaders from both sides meeting to RP some resolution to the issue..

All in all, just remember it is just a game, all of you make it what it is and in game RP makes it move..

Back to basics is sometimes good..

Just logged in to find 2 pesky cleaves in our temple and all the fells afk meh luckily i managed to slay em

Perhaps TheVaals is just frustrated because it is tantalizing to have so many players on the list, and yet there is not a whole heck of a lot of activity. The reality is that those players aren't 'wasting space' unless the server is hitting the max player limit (which I have not seen since coming back). If they weren't AFKing, then they wouldn't be logged in at all, and they still wouldn't be PvPing with you. Moth makes some good points, and I too enjoy the random PvP encounters more than structured assaults, but I don't think the active player base is large enough to make relying on that sort of PvP feasible. Although, back in the day we used to actively hunt the axfels a lot more often.

Here's my idea, and I admit there could be flaws, increase the experience gain from PvP kills in certain areas, perhaps those closer to the enemy fort, or maybe those that occur in Condor's Scream which was a HUB of pvp activity for a long time when it was revamped and players were exploring it. It made a very interesting dynamic because you had to go up and down through the dungeon to reach the end, and forced an ultimate showdown if two groups were going through at the same time. A good idea would be one that gives LVL 40 characters from opposing factions a reason to frequent the same zones very often.

Giving people things to do with their 40's besides log them on for assaults is the best way to prevent them having multiple alts on opposing sides of the war. Perhaps even some small bonuses for every couple hundred thousand xp after reaching 40. Nothing big enough to really affect balance, but something to keep people obsessively working on 1 character and that's the only character they want to play.

I agree that the goals for a lvl 40 is too few.
They always have been.
There isn't enough to motivate you.
If a new area is added you will explore that and...then what?
Creating new and high quality areas take time and they are explored in a matter of hours.

The only things that interest me as a lvl 40 are;
PvP (assault).
Stock XP and Gold.
Hope to find "that" item you really need.
Help lowbies train.

I've explored the idea to make the max lvl 60, which is doable - sorta.
But there are some issues with that.
I concluded that the only real feasible way to do it, is to add another class that can only be chosen once you reach lvl 40 (for reasons I don't remember TBH ).
And then cap that class at 20 or whatever, capping the max at 60 or whatever.
That way you can make a class that only gains 1 HP per level, preventing the HP from getting out of control for those that are above lvl 40 compared to someone that's lvl 40.
And preventing casters from getting 60 caster levels and so on, though that could obviously be fixed easily with the MothGetCasterLevel() function.
You could also make the XP required per level something insane, making progression above lvl 40 very slow and with very small rewards - but it would still be progression.

That presents a few problem in itself, most obviously for those that already have 3 classes.
And that the NWServer only allows for 40 levels (but there was a way around this, if I remember correctly).
ELC would have to be turned off aswell.
The AB also gets messed up when you are Polymorphed, if memory serves.
Now I've only experimented with this a little bit and that was a few years ago, so I don't really recall what other obstacles there were, but there were a few.
It might also be tricky to implement this into a MOD that always has a bounch of chars - and I'm gonna assume no one is interested in a wipe (aside from -Rabidus-).

But it sure would be cool and something I probably should look into when I got some time.
But no one should get their hopes up, this will probably not work.

But what Radaghast123 suggested, giving out small persistant rewards based on XP above 780.000 or whatever you need to hit lvl 40, would be doable and kinda neat.
Smaller, easier and definately more compatible with an existing server vault.

-TheMothMan

You talk as if I have never played!

Regardless, Thee, my point was that what you are suggesting will not help. You will still have the same people afk'ing and you will still have the same people grinding. The only outcome of this would be that it would be easier to metagame and know who was on each side!

IMO, the problem with the mod as-is, is that you can't reasonably balance a PvE area with the current changes and with the current standard of magical items.
(As much as I love the changes!)

This means PvE is not scary, it's monotonous - it also means that when you die, you get angry because it's a factor that's relatively out of your control (Rolling 1 to a death spell, etc. / Lag). There is no challenge.

Even in PvP - the only way you stand a chance at dying (Providing everyone is doing the optimal thing!) is if you're unlucky, very outnumbered, or have an outside problem. Which is where I think a lot of the bad feeling comes from.

I've always felt that you can either do a set of areas, or you can't. There's no middle ground, where you might in fact fail (Excluding not preparing properly, or having a spike!).


Sure there is an option to give greater rewards in one way or another after you hit 40 - however, that's something that again has a limit and sure enough there'll be nothing to do up until someone makes the cap higher. Then makes it higher. Then makes it higher. Etc.

That's why nearly every NWN server that is still around focusses on RP.

-Rabidus- wrote:I vote a server wipe! >.>

Close to what I was thinking today but rather than the game server "Wipe" i'm thinking a forum server "Wipe" would be better..

The past week has been alot of forum reading and I think might cause ill feelings in game, all for posting errors and questions but PvP, fort balance and getting in to some of the topics as of late might cause an in-game rift.. Some may take what they read here and if they know the in game player, change how they RP with that person and not keep it in game only..

Play your char how you like and RP how you think your char wants to live on Anphillia - HAVE FUN!!

Whoisthere wrote: HAVE FUN!!

Wise words!

Radaghast123 wrote:Perhaps TheVaals is just frustrated because it is tantalizing to have so many players on the list, and yet there is not a whole heck of a lot of activity.

I play a lvl 40 shifter in cleaven. Since server was hosted by Starbridge back in 2011, a lot less players, cleaven was assaulted by a two person team before it got a council/players to assault back successfully -another two person team in which at times I made it a 3 person team and another person made it 4 people. Server still was somewhat low numbers in cleaven.

I'd give equipment away to see the character stop logging in because the player remake to axfell. Low levels complained that leveling was to hard.. and it was the cleaven lvl 40s fault for not helping them get xp.. (back before an update a lot of high levels exploited low levels for more xp). So moment I noticed cleaven emptied out and my character was being held responsible for other player's not being lvl 40 yet because I wouldn't kill things for them... well.. I found a more enjoyable thing to do with my time.
(Apparently one of the few lvl 40s who were still left, even switched side for the roleplay since cleaven was empty and axfell was full. No one had a problem with this.)

Came back inviting my friend to play on the server, they did on opposing side but quit due to drama concerning them. I was facing my own drama and fustraitions. Again low lvls nagging me to get them to lvl 40, dieing when I take them to get xp. Still blaming me for the lack of success of their character. Running off roleplaying and pveing with Axfells and not defending the fort. Basicly.. a few.. Axfells.. that were characters on cleaven side.

Yes I still remember this, Yes I shall always remember this among my anphillia memories... (But luckily dispite only speaking of the negative there was a still -bit- of position.)

So yes, some players have made characters and they classify as wasted space. At least to mean. Revert this to a FPS and they are about as good as Team Killers that don't necessairly kill you... but they don't kill an enemy thats shooting you down... They might have even dropped their gun for the enemy to pick up and kill you with.

Luckily this time around, unless i am mistaken the cleaven characters who actively roleplay fighting for cleaven are not pve'ing along side their enemy... Could be wrong.
Some consider that a type of roleplay I consider it slightly ooc-agreement/setup.

(Yes, I'm a bit bitter over experiencing some of this... but it's just a game and there are alternative enjoyments.)

I was thinking about this some more, and I'd admit that this business of players having multiple 40s on both sides of the war is a side effect of the AFK xp. Even if the player is a dedicated RPer of a single in game character, when they are not actively playing that character the obvious decision is to afk some other character. Before long they have multiple 40s on both sides and they can pick and choose the terms on which they go into PvP.

The solution I say again, is to offer some kind of incentive for gaining xp beyond level 40. It could be a store with role play enchancing untradeable plot items are sold (say 1 for every 100k xp). Or maybe a store where every item is a ring that has XX% damage immunity to a single damage type. Players would have to collect millions of xp to purchase the whole collection. Or maybe you can spend xp to improve crafting skills. The point is that it can be designed so that it never results in cumulative increases in power, but it could offer some adaptability.

People need to have incentive to invest in a single character. RP is half the equation, but the never ending grind for more cool stuff is the other half.

Professor Plum wrote:
Sure there is an option to give greater rewards in one way or another after you hit 40 - however, that's something that again has a limit and sure enough there'll be nothing to do up until someone makes the cap higher. Then makes it higher. Then makes it higher. Etc.

If we were playing Anph Genesis we wouldn't be having this conversation yet because the xp was lower and progression took much longer. This though had the drawback of being too difficult for some players/frustrating. Something like a new class allowing you to get to level 60 on a very slow and long progression scale would allow us to have our cake and eat it too. The slow progression would ensure that each player has very few characters reach the cap rather than the situation now where many players have a plethora of capped characters. I am under the conviction that lengthened progression will keep more people playing the same character for a much longer period as well as fear death as it impedes their progression which is not the case currently with a character that has xp well over 780k.

A multi faceted approach of most all of what was mentioned in this thread would in my mind curtail some PvP imbalance but more importantly I think would result in a much more enjoyable experience.

Is there even a way to make the level cap 60 ? If so that would be amazing! and again if so I would make it a long process to get to 60

My objections are as follows:

• Players will get frustrated at the slow curve of 60. (As they were with 40)
  
  
• Bonuses would have to be significant enough to make players want them, which would cause and amplify the numerous balance issues.
  
  
• We are only deferring the inevitable. People will reach 60, we will be back here again. This is not a solution.

As far as I'm aware - there is an incentive for people to play beyond 40. Notably RP.

Things people could potentially do, but choose not to do, with the xp beyond 40 - to further their character and enjoyment:

• Request custom items.
  
• Request custom script stuff (Spells, summons etc).
  
• Request custom areas.
  
• Request anything the hell they want.

Professor Plum wrote:
Things people could potentially do, but choose not to do, with the xp beyond 40 - to further their character and enjoyment:

Request custom items.
Request custom script stuff (Spells, summons etc).
Request custom areas.
Request anything the hell they want.

Love it.

Professor Plum wrote:

As far as I'm aware - there is an incentive for people to play beyond 40. Notably RP.

Things people could potentially do, but choose not to do, with the xp beyond 40 - to further their character and enjoyment:

• Request custom items.
  
• Request custom script stuff (Spells, summons etc).
  
• Request custom areas.
  
• Request anything the hell they want.

I agree. Really experience point total is a good indicator of how much or how long you have been playing a specific character.

**Truthfully, though I have been playing here a long time few of my characters have much experience beyond 40. I roleplay 40s and use them in PvP but don't hunt with them often.**

As with anything balance is a concern. What ever was given to one player must be equally available to another that can afford it.

I am balances champion!

Plus it's subject to approval.

Plus SPECIFIC requests would be far less likely to be approved. There'd be an element of surprise in it.

Typical request could be:

"Yo you totally awesome dude (Notice the flattery, that's important), may I (No can I, please - correct English use is a bonus!) have a funky item to further my character and their roleplay."
"Sure totally cool guy, you may have that item - I've okayed it with the dev team and your target to reach is 100k xp for it. Let me know when you've got there"

Etc.

I'm going to just roll with a crazy set of ideas here

RANZINGTON

Make ranzington a capturable, full pvp zone, the perks being access to seris and the bank (lower the interest), whichever side owns it gets full access to its services, the other side well, to hell with them.


PATRONAGE (XP SPENDING)

couple this with xp patronage system making xp a currency that can be spent on fort improvements for everyone
xp is passed up via script to the patron from the vassal, a vassal chooses a patron via an item and 50-80% of his/her xp (can be improved by purchasing with patron XP) is moved to their patron (much like in asherons call if anyone remembers that)

there can be multiple levels, but XP can only be spent by somone with their own patronage, for instance, the untys would probably all vassal under one patron who would contribute the xp they pass on to him to fort improvements

anyone who is a patron can spend xp vassals contribute as fort improvements but not their own, the best way to do this would be to convert the XP to some sort of token currency (maybe scratch this, overcomplicating things a bit?)

Heres the kicker, the important part... You have to be in the same area as the person for the XP to be passed on, promoting togetherness!! <- pom poms

fort improvements include

access to portaled in areas for endgame
access to better consumables from fort merchants
higher maximum returns from fort traders
purchase of a bank with higher interest rates than ranzington
access to mines with higher yields
access to raid the enemy fort and gain access to their improvements this must be purchased with patronage xp and only when you hold the enemies relic, a fort not holding the relic will not have godly intervention on their side to protect their fort.

fort captain can be scapled by one player, once in that players career and the captains scalp can be turned in for TO BE ANNOUCNED... i dunno?

^ Yes, I want all this. (Please... be able to script/implement it...)


sadly.. the whole Ranz switching back and forth or being either Fort's B*tch might wind up getting both axfell and cleaven wiped off the island even if they join forces. That city is deceptively powerful.

Sadly, it makes no IC sense that any fort would invade Ranzington - they're simply not that silly. Any that did so, would be murdered by the opposing fort teaming up with Ranz!

Also note how neither fort has ports, all trade is done through Ranzington - for the entire island. They are exceptionally powerful.

It would also create a larger imbalance and cut off a whole bunch of areas for players.

The xp fort improvements would also create imbalance.



I'll be charging XP for any out of the box requests from now on, my inbox is always open. (See Above)

Plum, is there any sort of in game message that you are accepting requests in exchange for xp? I imagine there are at least a couple people who don't read the forums.

Professor Plum wrote:I'll be charging XP for any out of the box requests from now on, my inbox is always open. (See Above)

What does this mean?

100k xp for clerical version of Lich King's staff!

PS...It should have +20enh/vorpal too.