Population problems, reasons and measures

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Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  silbador on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:54 am

Hello,

since a month and half aprox. the population has been decreasing to disturbing levels.
The main cause is the difficulty to level up and to sense an useful char to the fort.

This is a theme that has been discussed some times, and always has been closed without
any solution, but the problem continues, and continues badly.

The players that have been gone, probably dont come back if there isn't any change to good.
And the new players, won't come if the population is mainly "afk-chars" due to is the most
safely way to level up. This is a circular death way that drives the server to fall off to the 1/40
population of the most part of the dead servers.

I suggest one initial measure to evade infinite discussions about quantities, and is to double
the xp gaining and halven the xp loss by the sphere. Is it a madness? i dont think so if we
compare a 4/40 server vs a 34/40 server. Remember that this is a fort war themed server, and
without soldiers, this server loses its sense.

And now, what do you think?

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  -terenee- on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:07 am

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  TheeVals on Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:02 pm

It was my understanding that months ago the reason for lowered xp was to avoid players from having multiple lvl 40 characters.
To avoid people from making counter-power-builds in pvp against other faction and re-logging during assaults to pick a character that works well against the enemys that are online. (Also metagaming during random encounter pvp, retrieving corpse with an alt and seeking revenge. -This actually happened Sad.)

Its all there in the old posts that debate xp-gain (except for the part about players switching to an alt and metagaming, that happened in game).

The ironic part is most of the players that know what they are doing, know where to go for best xp gain etc, end up easily getting more than 1 lvl 40 character.
So ultimately low-xp only serves to keep new players at a disadvantage, unless they learn moth's anphillia and develop ooc skills of knowing mobs and xp gains, etc.

One good thing came out of the drastic xp change/decrease. High-lvls could no longer exploit lower lvls for raising their xp gain. I recall lvl 10's being taken to seris island by lvl 30-40ish player, which benefited the higher-lvl more than the lower-lvl.
Another good thing from the xp decrease (depending on preference..) a lot less pvp oppurtunities arose, due to the fact that people were stuck between lvl 20-30 excessively dieing and no one to grind xp with because soloing wasn't an option.

A few bad things;
-Boss hunting + treasure(magicnut) theifing. -easiest solo xp gain above lvl 30.
-Complains of time wasted due to a lack of progression in lvl-up and the grievance of 'desperate players' (hunting bosses and hoarding magic nuts).
-The loss of good roleplayers, not willing to learn the ways of moth's anph to get to lvl 40 and with none else to rp with among a majority of pger's/afker's.
- A lot less pvp than what could have potentially occured back when the population was an active 20-25 with relatively equal sides
(i assure you i remember one night server had just reset and 25 players logged back in and it wasn't mainly axfell or cleaven, relatively even sides.)
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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  Vladimir on Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:18 pm

TheeVals wrote:One good thing came out of the drastic xp change/decrease. High-lvls could no longer exploit lower lvls for raising their xp gain. I recall lvl 10's being taken to seris island by lvl 30-40ish player, which benefited the higher-lvl more than the lower-lvl.
This is simply inaccurate.higher lvl char do not get more xp in any situation by having a low lvl char nearby.it doesnt work that way.

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  J. Persinne on Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:49 pm

I'll concede that difficulty has likely caused some (or even many) players to shy away from the server, but espousing that notion as the seed of any revisionary philosophy seems, to me at least, to completely miss the point. The server is intended to be hard. If it doesn't work for you, then that's fine; it's not for everyone. Heck, it doesn't always work for me; there are a few areas in which I feel the difficulty transcends mere challenge, boldly strutting into the territory of patently unfair (and I'd certainly be interested in hearing feedback on what others feel these areas are). I'll say again, however, that difficulty is, by and large, precisely the point. It's no more sensible to complain that the server is designed to be hard (and maintain that that's killing the server) than to complain that it has two factions (and maintain that that's killing the server).

Really, I'm not trying to be dismissive here. I'll bite: what are the numbers by which the XP gain to XP loss ratio becomes ideal for every player in every circumstance? Does everyone agree that it's 200%/50%? If so, why so? If not, why not?


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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  TheeVals on Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:05 pm

Vladimir wrote:
TheeVals wrote:One good thing came out of the drastic xp change/decrease. High-lvls could no longer exploit lower lvls for raising their xp gain. I recall lvl 10's being taken to seris island by lvl 30-40ish player, which benefited the higher-lvl more than the lower-lvl.
This is simply inaccurate.higher lvl char do not get more xp in any situation by having a low lvl char nearby.it doesnt work that way.

Sorry that you misunderstood my use of past tense.
Back before the host changed, along with the xp system. A higher lvl character benefited from having a low lvl character leach off of them.

After the host was switched and xp drasticly decreased from a goblin kill at lvl 4 being nearly 100xp... (down to what? around 50ish? -and of course to have a higher lvl tag along causes the xp to reward only 35, unless i am mistaken.) high lvl character's also suffered a xp penalty from having lower lvls around.

So yes, today a lvl 30 wont benefit from a lvl 10 tagging along. But my point is that a few months ago a lvl 30 did benefit from a lvl 10 tagging along.
Therego its a good thing that the xp decreased so new player's/character's weren't exploited just for a higher lvl's personal gain.
Further explination;;
low lvl character's benefited most by soloing or going with other low lvls to low-lvl areas, so having a high lvl character whisk you away to a high lvl area where you could easily die wasn't a realistic rp sense of an experienced soldier helping a recruit train.


Hope that clarifies your confusion.


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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  -terenee- on Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:15 pm

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  Rann Cora on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:07 pm

I say quadruple the timed XP. This will have more people inclined to leave their characters on AFK and will bait in new players to play. Now, the counter to this argument is that when a person joins and is like "holy crap look at all the people, oh, they're afk" then said player leaves anyway. But, generally, you don't want to spend all of your time grinding and killing and such right? This would encourage more people to stand around and RP. Case in point: I logged in after going home from work intending to afk and go play Black Ops for like 30 minutes and go to bed. Instead, I caught a live person right in front of me and spent that 30 minutes RPing with them. Wasn't much, but it was interesting. I would MUCH rather have people to chat with and level up by being online and talking to people than have to spend all damn day out killing stuff. I've been killing stuff in NWN since 2004. The RP is what keeps me coming back and the team dynamic between the forts, as that is always fluid and always changing and always new. If Cleaven wasn't so desolate all the time, I know I'd spend less time AFK and more time around the fort.

Also, dinged level 21 when I got home tonight. That means I have become epic with only about 2 hours of time spent playing, but God knows how many spent AFK. Also I haven't died. Ever.

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  Felix on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 pm

TheeVals wrote:It was my understanding that months ago the reason for lowered xp was to avoid players from having multiple lvl 40 characters.
To avoid people from making counter-power-builds in pvp against other faction and re-logging during assaults to pick a character that works well against the enemys that are online. (Also metagaming during random encounter pvp, retrieving corpse with an alt and seeking revenge. -This actually happened Sad.)
That's not correct. The xp being "lowered" if that is what you want to call it was due to a bug in the way star had part of the xp being implemented. Before xp gain encouraged soloing as having any one with you including summons, familiars, or henchmen cut your xp in half for each additional party member. It had nothing to do with the above mentioned things.

I do not think that raising xp gain is going to bring more people to the server. I do see a slight problem in that gaining xp easy in a party is hard because there are not many times when a lot are on. This leaves a slight problem for those who are soloing. Soloing your death to xp ratio is always going to be worse off. I think that the xp gain gets much easier the more people are able to go out in large within 7 level groups.
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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  silbador on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:59 pm

To the point:
Have you asked to the people that has leaved the server their reasons?
Me yes: is very hard, low xp, high xp penalty, unavailability of pvp due to low level.

We never will have full parties if we havent people, so if increasing the xp is a problem for
the vision of the DM team, havent people is a greater problem yet.

We need a hard change of mind in the rewards of the server, and it depends on the
necessities of the people instead of the necessities of the server theme.

When we have a lot of people, then we should ask to everyone what thinks about the
actual system, but by now, the main aim is to revival the server. A faster empowering of the
chars will cause a fast grow of the population, and then we will have full parties.
Basic laws of economics Smile

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  J. Persinne on Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:41 pm

That's just the thing, though: people are going to leave for myriad reasons. Some are going to leave because the XP isn't high enough. Some are going to leave because it's too high. Most, I imagine, are going to leave for reasons completely unrelated to XP.

Really, it's all too easy to take what we want and project it onto everyone else, assuming that's what they all want. "If only we cranked up that XP slider," we might say (in this particular case), "we'd have more players instantly!"

Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. Players are far too numerous and far too varied to paint with so broad a brush. No single change is going to comprise the magical solution that instantly attracts and retains a vibrant playerbase. It's always a bit of give and take.

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  Vladimir on Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:42 pm

to the point;
with the current low pop on the server, whats the harm in TRYING higher xp gain for a month or two?
speculate all u want, but at the end of the day testing is the only way to know for sure.
not much to lose at this point.

make it so!

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  TheeVals on Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:48 pm

i'm not advertising for any other servers... but i feel its necessary to point out that the other anphillia (that may or not not still be running? I havn't checked..) has a rest xp setup. This means xp-gain is even lower than on this server, (which is reasonable considering they only get to lvl 14-20.

Comparisons;
This server:
Within a day of a new player killing things solo, if death is avoided, they can reach epic level.

That server:
Within a day of a new player killing things solo, if death is avoided and all rest-xp is collected, they can reach level 4-5.

Perhaps considering the alternatives might help people accept the current progression of levels?
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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  -terenee- on Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:46 am

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  -terenee- on Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:17 am

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  silbador on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:14 am

J. Persinne wrote:That's just the thing, though: people are going to leave for myriad reasons. Some are going to leave because the XP isn't high enough. Some are going to leave because it's too high. Most, I imagine, are going to leave for reasons completely unrelated to XP.

You imagine that, but i yes have asked some of them.
No one of them left it by high xp (but it was truth in the case of exodus, that had about 3,5xp times
respect here and i noticed there at least 3 players that left it by the high xp), and (by my stadistics)
the results were (aprox):

- Old players (players with more than 1 year of playing here) : I have no idea of them

- Medium players (players between 1 month and 1 year) :
---> 70% the xp is too low and the penalties are too high
---> 10% he cant play a time along and will entry each X months about a week
---> 20% the server is mainly afk

- New players (less than 1 month):
---> 60% the xp is too low and the penalties are too high
---> 20% dont like the server
---> 20% dont have anyone to go together (population problem/afk chars)


And please, leave of compare this with a normal anphillia: this isnt a normal anphillia, is anphillia genesis.
If we start to undermark us, bad way.
In a normal anphillia, with lvl 24 is sufficient to start an assault. Here 38-40 is needed (and in group)

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  DM Sage on Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:49 am

How many of you have actually run a PW? Have you been faced with a similiar situation? Did raising the XP address the problem? Was the server suddenly booming with new players? Or did it simply appease a handful of players that were looking to see it increased?

Some of the most populated PW's have an extremely high level of difficulty. Take a look at their player lists. Or perhpas you don't need to because you have played on them. In many cases, it takes several months to reach epic levels. Some even put a level cap of 30. On this particular server, you can reach epic levels within 4 to 5 days, if you play a few hours a day.

IMHO, the real problem is the vision of the server has not been communicated clearly to the player base. Is this truly a RP server, focused on a party enviroment and DM interaction. Is this a PvP server, with little to no RP and constant battle between two factions? Is this an action server where the goal is to get to level 40 as soon as possible? I believe each type of server draws a different type of player.

It might just be that some of our current player base does not fit the mold for what the DM team is trying to create here. That's okay. It's up to them to find something that better fits the gaming experience they are looking for.

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  Rugnarie on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:21 am

DM Sage wrote:Some of the most populated PW's have an extremely high level of difficulty. Take a look at their player lists. Or perhpas you don't need to because you have played on them. In many cases, it takes several months to reach epic levels. Some even put a level cap of 30. On this particular server, you can reach epic levels within 4 to 5 days, if you play a few hours a day.

I remember this one time I was quite addicted to Anphillia Revival...First I got scolded for powergaming at the bugbears, then for being filthy dwarf....it took me a month to become lvl 8 -.-

Here, on this particular server, you can reach epic levels within EIGHT HOURS! 4 days lol Very Happy
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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  -terenee- on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:22 am

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  Rugnarie on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:24 am

Somehow I doubt that's the case.
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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  -terenee- on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:32 am

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  silbador on Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:46 am

And about that "In 4 days a char can be 40" is lie.
I have (i think) the best build to pve in this server, and it cost me about 1 month to reach the 40 (and
is a maximized pve build! without taking attention to pvp uses) playing 8 hours at day.

We are discussing fallacies, the question is very simple:
Why the most part of the server are afk chars?
Because is safer dont die and gain 2K every day than try to make trips.

If this is becoming an undead server, at least put them the undead template to everyone that i can
control them xD xD xD

PD: The server is offline

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  DM Sage on Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:16 am

Epic levels start at 21. You can get there within a week. AFK'ing is happening because it is being offered. Maybe we should take timed XP away. That would force people to have to go out to gain XP.

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  silbador on Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:19 am

DM Sage wrote:Epic levels start at 21. You can get there within a week. AFK'ing is happening because it is being offered. Maybe we should take timed XP away. That would force people to have to go out to gain XP.

Both measures can be joined: XP increasing and timed XP deleting.
However, if finally it will be done, i suggest about 2 or 3 weeks with XP increased and with the actual
XP timing (to let the afk chars some time to adjust their chars)

Another tip: One soloing char can reach the 21 in a week; but a support char (like a bard or archer) cant.
And we are talking about chars with muled gear and veteran players.

PD: The server continues offline.

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Re: Population problems, reasons and measures

Post  Rugnarie on Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:23 am

No offense taken Wink

I guess I should point out, that I am living in the countryside, not the city, which means, I am working everyday.
30 turkeys, 10ducks, 10 hens, 3(actually now 8 cats), dog, about a hectar of grass which doesn't get cut on its own.
Then there's construction building, mushrooms hunts ( why going for mushrooms into virtual world, when you can actually go find some real ones)
Then there are parties and girls....
and if I feel like need to play something on the PC, I just squeeze 2 or 3 games of LoL into my day and then fall asleep.
I always felt like being absent is better than being afk.
But hey, summer is ending soon and nerds gonna stay at home more and more...so have faith! Smile


P.S: I think I remember Thonil becoming lvl 40 within a week Smile
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