language widgits!

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:10 am

Fred can't though, he's really dumb.

If everyone speaks something someone can't understand, it's excluding the player from interaction. I have absolutely no problems with excluding the character.
avatar
Professor Plum

Posts : 783
Join date : 2011-04-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Arataki on Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:03 am

I have played on a hardcore rp server where you have to had a real background. You did get a second or thirth language based on that background. Wizzards did know them all. I believe there were six of them, not sure.

Yes sometimes it was annoying if you could not understand what the others are talking about but I don't think it will happen here often because this is not a hardcore server where you do not suppose to know the background of that person you do not understand.

It would be nice if you could learn other languages too tough. Like putting points on lore or concentrate or whatever.

I would love to see it come in this server too, but I don't know what you mean what it has to do with pvp. Normaly it would just complicate it . The simple orc would not understand what he has to do.

You could keep it simple tough. Common, dwarven, elven, drachonite (don't know if that last word is written right) and then each fort member has to learn a certain *code* ( that will be the other two languages) that only recruits of that certain fort can understand.

That will perhaps minimaze the partytalk when assulting.

My two cents *shrugs*
avatar
Arataki

Posts : 26
Join date : 2011-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Vladimir on Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:54 am

when i comes to code there is a probelm.
with onplayerchat event u cant send different msg to different pcs. u can change what a pc says but not what a pc hears or not hears.
so u can make someone speak drow but u cant translate it to only a selected pc.the onplayerchat even has no GetPCListener or whatever u wanna call it.
talk and whisper broadcast to everyone within a set range limit(if not deafened) or no limit for party and shout.
dm chat has a hardcode filter to send only to dms.as has partychat.
this filter u want to control with code but u cannot. Sad
tells work different but u cant modify tells with onplayerchat. onplayerchat event will only return on a return so you cant hook it or use intermissions in a useful way.
adding this was nice of bioware but they didnt give us enough functions to make a working translator or chatfilter.

u need to use work arounds if u want to screen out pcs from a broadcast.nwnx2 can do it.so can dmfi but more limitd.

Vladimir

Posts : 110
Join date : 2011-05-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:47 am

We use a nwnx2 hook for the shout command, already. (It's area wide, rather than server wide)

It's not that tricky to implement and J makes it look even easier than it is. The discussions about whether it should be done, not whether it's possible Smile.
avatar
Professor Plum

Posts : 783
Join date : 2011-04-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Felix on Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:28 am

Professor Plum wrote:Fred can't though, he's really dumb.

If everyone speaks something someone can't understand, it's excluding the player from interaction. I have absolutely no problems with excluding the character.

How does Fred communicate?

If you just emote *speaks in Elven* and my character doesn't speak Elven how am I as a player included in interaction any more than I would be if all I could read was gibberish?

Do you as a player feel excluded when other characters use whispers and you cant see what they are saying?

I think its the character that is being excluded not the player.
avatar
Felix
Admin

Posts : 1253
Join date : 2011-02-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  J. Persinne on Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:49 am

Professor Plum wrote:We use a nwnx2 hook for the shout command, already. (It's area wide, rather than server wide)

It's not that tricky to implement and J makes it look even easier than it is. The discussions about whether it should be done, not whether it's possible Smile.
We don't use NwNX at all here right now. Though yes, it's been done before. I'm sure we could easily do it again.

J. Persinne

Posts : 591
Join date : 2011-03-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:42 am

We don't? -Geeze-.

Fred communicates... with difficulty. In fact, he knows what one word means and it gets him by, just fine.

You're included because you understand what's going on. Even if your character doesn't. You can't understand what's going on, if you don't speak the language people around you are speaking. Therefore the player is excluded as well as the PC.

The majority of my enjoyment from RP comes from the reaction and RP of others around me, rather than my own. Regardless of whether my character can understand it or not. So long as I can, it doesn't matter.

People are responsible when it comes to meta-gaming in RP, at least I haven't seen anyone do it - so there is no real need for a language system. In fact you can't eliminate meta, so why go 1/8th of the way? Trusting others is the way forward.

Whispering is generally not a channel used in RP. At least good RP. People would *Mutter* X or *Whisper* X to give those around them chances to roll listen checks and keep everyone included.
avatar
Professor Plum

Posts : 783
Join date : 2011-04-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Felix on Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:22 pm

Hmmm good points. I never considered your OOC enjoyment watching others RP in other languages. I am unsure if the coolness of the language widget is greater than some peoples enjoyment watching others RP in language or not.
avatar
Felix
Admin

Posts : 1253
Join date : 2011-02-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  TheeVals on Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:59 am

I'm not trying to insult anyone with this post... just trying to get some clearity as to why this is so important/interesting to have... feel free to tell me i am wrong xD but i really think i hammered the nail!

Krakilin wrote:esoteric conversation.

Yes i figured that was the reason behind the desire of this function. Which is why i suggest using tells or party chat.

Scenerio;
*makes randomly hand movements, to onlookers with lore this can be recognized as drow sign language*

via tells- My char just gestured the following message to yours; blablablablablalblalalblal

-and thats done... easy enough!?
WAIT

There was a drow not all to far away and he saw you also, so for the sake of rp and realism.. you now need to type out your message to them if they icly type in *watches yourcharacter's handmovements*

-and there you go, all non drows around have no idea what you said, your secretly important epicly awesome message is safe from public viewing! They know it exists and they don't know what it is.. the curiosity will haunt them in their dreams... mission accomplished!

but wait.. why should you have to type in two messages when there exists a function for nwn which can broadcast the message for you, to all those near by who are eligable to hear it?

And when worded that way, one can make the arguement rp isn't being enriched. its just catering to lazyness. ... isn't it?
Not wanting to have to type the same message over and over again
getting into a private ooc debate through tells over weither someone is eligable or not to understand...
Wanting to have the natural effect of oocly not being aware of something rather than oocly knowing it and rping ic obliviousness...


---------------------------
Where is the rp in that situation where a game spews gibberish at you and you oocly don't know so icly you act as such V.S. you oocly know what was said.. but icly act as if you don't know.

Not sure about you guys... but to me, in my oppinion, the latter situation has more rp than the prior.

and if you want all these secretive conversations, lead a group of people somewhere private and chit chat.
or invite them into a seperate part.. and use party chat for the actual communications..

ex;
Talk; *Is speaking to the people around him/her in <language>, the message seems to be a long one*
Party chat; "Axfell/Cleaven suck"
Talk; *replys to them in in the same language, the message seems short to the point*
Party chat; "I concur, last week i ran into a group of them and my feet got a royal spit shine job. Who knew a person could produce so much saliva with enough accuracy to aim between a narrow slit in their helmet... etc etc"

Thats basicly the same thing any language function will do automaticly -which again is a question of lazyness.
avatar
TheeVals

Posts : 341
Join date : 2011-02-28
Location : Sitting infront of a Computer.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  J. Persinne on Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:25 pm

It's not just about RP. It's about adding additional channels of communication. More communication channels = good for group networking. You can see this in the example posed above: if Axfell and Cleaven had unique languages, it'd be easier to communicate in real time, ICly. You couldn't realistically do that via tells. Tells are much too clunky.

To put it another way, what if we didn't have a talk channel? You could whisper, or use party chat, or use tells. But you couldn't talk. Would you be for adding a talk channel to facilitate the kind of communication that it's used for now? Or would you tell everyone that they should rely on either tells or party chat? Surely, anyone that isn't partied you can just privately relay information to, right?

Now, that said, more communication channels also = bad for inclusiveness. And there's the rub.

Does the good outweigh the bad? Quite possibly. If I had a wand I could wave, and then suddenly there'd be fully integrated languages, I'd want to at least try it. But I don't.

J. Persinne

Posts : 591
Join date : 2011-03-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Felix on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:34 pm

I am with you on this one J.
avatar
Felix
Admin

Posts : 1253
Join date : 2011-02-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  TheeVals on Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:56 pm

J. Persinne wrote:
To put it another way, what if we didn't have a talk channel? You could whisper, or use party chat, or use tells. But you couldn't talk. Would you be for adding a talk channel to facilitate the kind of communication that it's used for now? Or would you tell everyone that they should rely on either tells or party chat? Surely, anyone that isn't partied you can just privately relay information to, right?

I understand your point but i disagree with it since talk channel among these other channels doesn't equal to the possibilities of being stood around others and having half of them not understand you.

These diff channels affect the distance at which a message can be heard.
whispers - close range, talk -moderate range, shout -super epic universal range.
and tells and party chat affect whom recieves the message, a single person (and host if tells are logged.) or a group of people and the dm (and host if party chat is logged.)


So comparing a game feature which is already there that works as a limitation of your character's vocal range and ability to communication to something that can be added which is meant to provide the possibility of having secret conversations right infront of other people's faces (instead of icly creeping off from the group with the individual and having a whisper feat, in which case a sneaker could follow the eves drop to find out their epicly lame evil plot to rule the island... etc etc.)

Just think of it this way;
supose one day a group of spanish people join... or french people.. or better yet people who speak only italian. And they start playing here having their character's speak italian - a good group of 8-9 players who do not speak english, their chars speak italian... They might be good rpers... (you don't know because in this hypothedical you have no idea what they are saying..) but they are sometimes stood still facing each other.. and the gibberish is within '*' or '[' and not a single text smilie is typed in.. or a traditional ooc '//' statement. (as far as you know since you don't speak italian in this hypothedical...)
What are you going to do? let them play and watch how icly there is a group of 8-9 players only playing with each other? End up banning one of them when they do something wrong and communication between a dm and them is difficult?
or better yet... implement a translation system in same so that whenever you type anything in the server spews out a english version in the combat chat log? xD

My point is, would you really want 8-9 ACTIVE players around that talk amongs each other but its impossible for you to interact with them? yes having them around for pvp might be good but rping with them is completely out of the window...


I still think extra languages in game, actual nwn languages would hinder rp more than help it. The possible fustraition of a new player joining the server to find they aren't even greated while a group sits around talking their special language, onlookers already walked away disaproving of the gibberish spam.
Because face it, what are the chances you're going to have someone stood around watching you and your group communicate and try and interact with this group after the secret language continues... and then the purpose of having these languages deminishes because there is no one around to disclude from the conversation.

So then people with these languages resort to making a group outing which force people to stay around them and be exposed to their gibberish spamming?

(also just remembered something...
how come only people in a party are told, by the server, that people are whispering? now isn't that odd, unless your in a party with someone stood right infront of them your oblivious to their mouth moving and low volumed sound coming out... xD)
avatar
TheeVals

Posts : 341
Join date : 2011-02-28
Location : Sitting infront of a Computer.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  J. Persinne on Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:17 pm

I wasn't arguing that including scripted languages would be good. I was arguing against the notion that tells are a sufficient (i.e. roughly equivalent) stand in for scripted languages. They are not.
TheeVals wrote: how come only people in a party are told, by the server, that people are whispering? now isn't that odd, unless your in a party with someone stood right infront of them your oblivious to their mouth moving and low volumed sound coming out... xD)
Scripting limitation. Floating text messages can be set to show 1) for just the PC, or 2) for the PC and his party members. There is no option three.

It would be possible to incorporate a workaround, but not without a significant performance hit.

J. Persinne

Posts : 591
Join date : 2011-03-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: language widgits!

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum