language widgits!

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language widgits!

Post  Krakilin on Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:13 pm

just curious about adding them.. the other languages with that usable item would be a neat addition albeit low priority but also downloadable from vault.

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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:49 pm

What's wrong with good ol' fashioned [Elven]?
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Krakilin on Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:48 pm

the same reason we upgraded to virtual instead of pen and paper? progression and immersion

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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:41 pm

Right.

But in a virtual world, with seemingly endless possibility's, what's stopping anyone from picking up any language they want to?

Therefore, anyone that wants to understand what you say, will understand what you say.

So it'll be just like now, only you don't have two bits of information (a bit of gibberish and a line of English) and a bunch of redundant code.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Krakilin on Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:37 pm

actually it comes with the fact your allowed 1 loanguage +1 per int modifier so it prevents that. but neat theory

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Re: language widgits!

Post  J. Persinne on Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:41 pm

I've no trouble with the good old fashioned "[Elven] Blahblahblah", but something like this could be tied rather neatly into the upcoming chat commands script. I'll have to mull it over.

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Re: language widgits!

Post  Felix on Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:48 pm

I personally would love if we could do something like this.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:02 am

I have some more questions!

What's with the arbitrary limit?

Would someone with 8 int, learn 6 languages? (On account of, they can achieve an INT modifier of 5.)

Would natural languages / common count towards that? (E.G. Would an elf be able to learn Elven / Common outside of the limit?)

Similarly, would an RDD Elf, be able to learn Elven / Common / Draconic outside of it?

Druids -do- learn Sylvan and Druidic... but they wouldn't be able to if they're dumb?

What about existing PC's that have RP'd knowing more than their limit of languages? Do they simply wake up and not know them anymore?
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Felix on Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:08 am

Professor Plum wrote:
Would someone with 8 int, learn 6 languages? (On account of, they can achieve an INT modifier of 5.)
I think only your base intelligence is considered.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  TheeVals on Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:37 am

I don't really see a point to language systems other than discluding others from ic conversations.
and there is already a way to disclude others from ic conversations, by using tells between yourself and another character and have those tells count towards rp/ic.
OR use party chat and count that party chat towards rp/ic.

(I'm not saying people should use party chat or tells in an ic way, but some people do use these ooc functions for ic purposes etc... its not unheard of.)

If there are other purposes for language systems please tell me, i'd like to know xD


-What could be interesting is if both army's had their own languages.. aside from common.
I mean... this war has been going on for ages they must of developed some dialect or unique language by now.
Then again it would be redundent to impliment that since we'd soon have soldiers from each side teaching each other the secret awesome cleaven/axfell language

--also, shouldn't a person with low int still be able to -slowly- learn a language IF they've got skill points in lore? Lore is basicly knowing information, so can't lore be used to know information such as languages? could it be interpreted that it takes intelegence to speak/understand/write a language, and lore could possible enable a person to understand/write a language without being able to actually speak it?
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:46 am

But why only base int?

Yeh, that's my main concern TheeVals, on many servers language implementation causes elitism. And on those that it doesn't, it has the potential to.

In fact, there is absolutely no reason why a PC can't just inform others, in their sentence, that it's a specific language.

Immersion is just not a valid reason, because you type out an English sentence and are given back an english sentence - it's the same thing, but with added, seperate gibberish. Some might argue that it breaks immersion.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  TheeVals on Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:02 am

Professor Plum wrote:In fact, there is absolutely no reason why a PC can't just inform others, in their sentence, that it's a specific language.

The only reason i can see that encourages a need for a language function being implimented is;
in the event that a player does rp "[elven] blablabla" there is that chance where a half orc stops running around smashing things... and replys with a retort that shows they ignored that whole '[elven]' thing and rp understanding what was said.
((and we all know half orcs can't speak elven, pfft...))

bad example.. but the jist of the point is there...
similair to people god moding in rp fights... some people need that enforcement in their rp, to prevent the metagaming or unrealistic unfairness.
Because if a bunch of elfs wanna sit around insulting a half orc, its uber lame if that half orc automaticly understands them... xD


BUT... this reason still has that intent of discluding others in conversation...
perhaps i am missing the bigger picture.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:23 am

If someone wants to metagame something, there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so - languages just make it slightly harder, not impossible.

Communication is key to NWN, whether your character should or shouldn't be able to understand something is one thing. But enforcing it so that the player doesn't understand a situation is another. It's segregation, that's the last thing we need.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Krakilin on Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:30 pm

again professor you cant metagame this unless you have a second comp up with the known language in which case they kind of earn that metagame... but yes felix its only base int.

as for the communication for professor languages are a fun part especially during situations where useful such as pvp and esoteric conversation.

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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:24 pm

You can't? So, for example, one could not ask someone via a tell, what was said?

Esoteric conversations. That's one of the building blocks of elitism, right there.

Another interesting point, if a character overhears a conversation in another language and remembers that conversation, they can't then ask someone to translate for them.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Krakilin on Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Speaking other languages is esecially useful when defending and such will cut down on tells or party chat.

by your theory everyone should know every ic fact since they can metagame anyway if they want? lol wow.. alright I will just drop it there haha

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Re: language widgits!

Post  J. Persinne on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:13 pm

Krakilin wrote:Speaking other languages is esecially useful when defending and such will cut down on tells or party chat.
I do concur that this is a problem right now. The fast-paced nature of PvP does make it difficult to communicate with others through IC channels.

I'm not convinced that languages will solve it, though. Or at least, not just languages (though as part of a greater scheme, they may help). It's not too difficult to concoct some kind of code with other active defenders; the tricky bit is relating it to them fluidly.

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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:16 pm

It'll most definitely cut-down on party chat, if everyone in your fort speaks the same language and no-one on the other side does. Improbable, but plausible.

It is logical that anyone, who wishes to know, can know any IC fact so long as they exist and it is capable of being known.

I'm not saying that, for example, 2 people can't keep a secret. Only there is nothing in place to force them to and any attempt to do so would be fundamentally erroneous and erratic.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  J. Persinne on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:23 pm

You're presuming a false dichotomy, though. It's possible for there to be middle ground between "all facts are known" and "none are known". You could certainly niggle over the value of this middle ground, but doing so strikes me as a rather disingenuous exercise in futility; any value so attributed would almost necessarily be measured by subjective means.

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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:32 pm

I didn't infer absolutes. Rather it is possible for a single entity to know anything, within the limitations of what can known. (You cannot know more than there is)

It's entirely acceptable to assume that the probability of knowing more increases exponentially. Though as everything that can be known, may be known, it would not be asymptotic.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  J. Persinne on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:47 pm

Professor Plum wrote:It's entirely acceptable to assume that the probability of knowing more increases exponentially.
Exponentially by which measure? Though I do partly take your meaning, the fact that you've failed to specify the parameters of the exponential equation renders your argument rather abstruse.

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Re: language widgits!

Post  Felix on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:59 pm

Using big words causes elitism! Hehe but seriously Plum you really think that having IC languages like has been proposed is going to cause OOC elitism? Or am I misunderstanding? These languages would be a lovely immersion tool!

We have thought of some situations where some one has the intent to meta game but how about when someone doesn't want to? Personally if someone was speaking a language my character didn't know I would like to not be able to read what they say so my RPed response would be easier and more natural as opposed to me reading it OOC and understanding it then trying to RP my character not understanding it. Its not extremely hard to do but I would prefer the game to simulate things for me when possible rather than emote them.

All this being said I am uncertain the amount of time or how difficult something like this would be to implement. If it is difficult it would likely take a back seat to more important updates for now.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:00 pm

Unfortunately I don't have any data to support it, it's entirely speculation - though it does seem logical. As although data is limitless; the ability to store and recall that data, for any entity (both externally and internally) is limited. Granted the set would have to be extremely large. Conventionally, however, it wouldn't - the average person doesn't have the entirety of the universe to store their data. The difficulty of 'knowing' more rises.

Data seems unmeasurable by any offhand way I can think of, because by knowing a secret, to know that a third party knows it (And hence deduce that it has been known), you affect the system.


Last edited by Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Professor Plum on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:10 pm

I agree, it would add immersion to those who could not speak the language. (Not for those who can. IMO getting gibberish spewed at me and then a translation is about as immersion breaking as it gets)

What about when a player who doesn't speak elven; is partying with elven speaking elves. How fun is that going to be for them?

As an example; Fred is dumb. He barely speaks common; he barely understands anything that goes on around him. I'd hate to personally not understand what goes on around him that would be ridiculously boring, and yes, I'd feel left out.

To further this, if Fred is dumb, should I not also be dumb? My responses would, after all, come more naturally. In fact, should everyone simply RP themselves?

What I see happening, is a focus of language. Probably specific to each fort, with everyone speaking language X - forcing everyone else to speak language X to be involved. Then it become a necessity, rather than a feature, to be able to speak language X.
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Re: language widgits!

Post  Felix on Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:38 pm

Everyone even Fred can speak common. If the Elves want to be asses and speak elvish all the time even when Fred is around what is wrong with that? They will have to face the consequences of their IC actions. Fred getting angry others becoming annoyed ect ect. Is this the elitism your talking about? I will have to start a new thread and get the definition from you.
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