From old forums: Sneak vs detect

View previous topic View next topic Go down

From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Krakilin on Mon May 02, 2011 3:28 am

Alright - This is hopefully going to result in some sympathy for the sneaky people.

It is much easier to see someone that's sneaking, mainly from the natural d20 roll that is made against the sneaker.

It is far easier to see someone on this module, than on many others. Mainly because of the following:

True Seeing:

Being available to -everyone-, the spell gives +12 spot and listen off the bat. Chasm, a book has 5 uses per day of this, and the new 'starlight' item has one use per day and are not in the slightest bit rare.

Claudiance / Claurivoyance:

+15 spot, +15 listen. Also available to everyone in handy infinite uses a day book form. Albeit the duration is fairly short, but it gets the job done.

Amplify:

Scrolls of everything being available in ranzington, yay for amplify. Haven't tested it, but I'll assume its unchanged from +20 listen.

Gods Perception Rings:

Now, +16 spot and +12 listen (something like that anyway) isn't what most people will use them for. The +3 Strength and +2 dex is probably more the main reason for people having these. They're useful for both dex and strength based characters, very very many builds could make use of them.

Wearing 2 gives +32 spot, +24 listen. Add in the two books and your hitting the 50 cap for both skills.

I'm going to assume that everyone agrees with me that hitting the +50 cap for spot and listen with items makes your character impaired in any way. Even my mage gets this easily and the only detrimental thing is he has 1 less 7 - 9 spells (though he gets improved evasion Smile)

For things to be fair, in my opinion, a sneaker needs to at least be able to reach this cap without any sort of impairment.

Moth introduced rogue items, suddenly there was hope, although - if you have seen them you'll probably beg to differ.

They don't provide any statistical bonus's and are far far outmatched by their spot / listen counterparts. They're detrimental, in every way apart from allowing a character to sneak better - Great for running away, but not effective for killing anything.

The daggers for example, very overpriced - and dual wielding 2 due to the light on them gives -2 to hide / ms in total. Fine, casted light will negate this bonus, but it also gives no room for rogues to be inventive with their weapons.
Also they're pretty under average as far as weapons go, and are hugely overpriced. The strength damage on hit poison means you cant put something useful like CON poison on them; keen for a rogue is definitely not the same as it is for a fighter; + poison saves is useless and +4 AB, not even enhancement is weaker than most high end weapons. The only unique, useful thing is the 1d10 neg damage.

Epic rogue rings are +3 protection ac (perfect for wearing two) +15 hide, +10 ms, they also have +1 regen and +3(?) death saves. Compared to the gods perception ring the skills don't even match them and they have no stats or anything 'really' useful save the 1 regen.

The helm, amulet, boots etc are all very expensive and have the same awful, unhelpful bonus's. (Especially in the case of the helm when you can obtain +20 spot / listen helms easily).

You have scrolls though! You can get +10 hide from camouflage and another +10 from mass camouflage. You can get +4 hide / ms bonus from one with the land.


Eww, I got a little carried away. Point being, its easy to obtain a maxed spot / listen skill bonus. Though, if you attempt to do the same thing with hide / ms you cant without making your sneaker impaired to the point it doesn't matter if someone does or doesn't spot you.

Krakilin

Posts : 37
Join date : 2011-03-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  J. Persinne on Mon May 02, 2011 1:22 pm

While I do feel that sneaker itemization needs some love (largely because the book nerf leaves them absolutely starved for item slots), things aren't quite as dire as you make them out to be. The detect nerf (-10 spot/listen) makes it much harder to detect a sneaker.

J. Persinne

Posts : 591
Join date : 2011-03-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Krakilin on Mon May 02, 2011 5:07 pm

Kumo you know detect gets a d20 roll and stealth does not? meaning the -10 gives them d10 roll on average as well as better itemization? meaning the -10 only half negates another bonus to detect over sneak? and itemization needs a little love.. but what kills us is that the +50 spot cap is so easily obtainable without crippling your characters. where as even with Shadow evade/ dancers silhouette camouflage and others the hide/listen cap is so far you have to nerf your char to reach it.

Krakilin

Posts : 37
Join date : 2011-03-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  J. Persinne on Mon May 02, 2011 6:07 pm

Krakilin wrote:Kumo you know detect gets a d20 roll and stealth does not? meaning the -10 gives them d10 roll on average as well as better itemization? meaning the -10 only half negates another bonus to detect over sneak?
Stealth mode uses a cached die roll against relatively frequent detect mode rolls. On the one hand, this does mean that a low roll results in a much higher chance of detection over a short period of time; but on the other, a high roll results in the opposite effect. It's a wash.

If you're skeptical, this behavior is confirmed about halfway down this thread. Rulebook documentation (spotty though it may be) and NwNWiki point to this behavior too.

There are also a number of modifiers to spot and listen rolls that tilt things in the sneaker's favor.

J. Persinne

Posts : 591
Join date : 2011-03-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Krakilin on Mon May 02, 2011 6:15 pm

if your speaking of light, that's near against without preparing the field. which we do but the die roll and easy itemization still exist. where as Sneakers get the "epic" ring of chameleon with +3 ac +1 regen and 15 hide 10 ms. compared to gods perception. and greater helm of true seeing (moths version) Gives massive bonus including the spell. even with light modifiers and the -10 the most it does is would equal it out. where the original argument is sneakers cripple themselves to reach something spotters obtain naturally gearing.

Of course if you feel +6 dex +4 str+32 spot +24 listen = +30hide +20 MS regen +2 and +3 ac. (x2 gods perception vs x2 epic chameleon rings)

or +20 spot listen +2 ac +the bonus from true seeing = +20 MS, +2 dex (greater helm of guardian vs cloak of elves AND the boots of elven kind)

Just tell me and I will politely leave. Not even mentioning rogue items or the other spot items as this could go on forever.

Krakilin

Posts : 37
Join date : 2011-03-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Professor Plum on Tue May 03, 2011 3:41 am

You only get a d20 roll when you're actively detecting, it's d10 without.


Dex Sneakers: [43(Base)+50(Cap)+10(ESF)+2(Stealthy)+DEX[Assuming base 16 = 14)] = 119


For a non-dedicated detector - that is anyone with junk detect, you'll achieve ~99 (43+50+6).
-10 = 89

For an ESF detector: 109 - 10 = 99
For Wisdom Detector + ESF (16 base wisdom, all points): 117 - 10 = 107

Ergo, using the worst case roll for hide/ms, and active detect, this is the chance you're detected:

89 +d20 -> 119 (+1) = 0%
99 +d20 -> 119 (+1) = 0%
107 +d20 -> 119 (+1) = 35%

Using the average roll for stealth (Rounded down):
107+d20 -> 119 (+10) = 0%

This doesn't take into account that sneakers are better at actively manipulating the stealth rolls to gain penalty's / bonus's in their favour. Or the fact that the detect rolls are extremely buggy and do not fire when they're supposed too. Neither does it take into account corner sneaking, or HIPS which if done right, negates any usefulness detect has completely.


As you can see, you don't need to cap your skills to hide from practically everything.

Equipping was never hard, for me - I honestly don't see the problem. Though as a tip, something you may not have thought of, try using 2 'stealth' weapons to stealth with, then switch to whatever weapon you're primarily using before you attack.
avatar
Professor Plum

Posts : 783
Join date : 2011-04-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Krakilin on Tue May 03, 2011 4:28 am

Plum we are aware of the math. we are discussing itemization comparison.

Krakilin

Posts : 37
Join date : 2011-03-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Professor Plum on Tue May 03, 2011 8:42 am

If you're aware of it, why're you drawing direct comparisons from Spot / listen to hide / ms in terms of gear?
avatar
Professor Plum

Posts : 783
Join date : 2011-04-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Professor Plum on Tue May 03, 2011 8:54 am

Sneaker HIDE / MS maxing 101:



Buffs

Hide (38):

10 Camo
10 MCamo
4 OWTL
14 Awry Self


Move Silently (4):
4 OWTL


Equipment:
Seams of Abtruse (+15 Hide / +15 MS)

Hide is now capped


Frame Blender (+15 MS)
Sickle of Vapor * 2 (+20 Hide / +20 MS) OR Axe of the Coming (+16 / +16)

MS is now capped


So you max stuff with 2 items and 2 weapons which you can quick switch in and out.


A detecter can do it with 2 items and never detect anything, anyway!


Sneakers have it rough.


Last edited by Professor Plum on Tue May 03, 2011 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Professor Plum

Posts : 783
Join date : 2011-04-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Rhine Jive Click on Tue May 03, 2011 8:56 am

I think he's referring to the fact that the way Genesis is "balanced" you need to swap item slots frequenty in order to have a chance against the elite players.



That sounds way more agressive than it really is, if you look at how many builds work and why. I agree that there's flaws in item distribution, but I don't think adding better sneaker gear alone will address it; in my opinion, a script that prevents you from swapping items (except weapons) in battle would help, but still not really fix things. The server (and the people whose tastes and play style the idea of balance comes from) is based around this. "Balance" should be stricken from the vocabulary of NWN servers, because it's about a set of people's idea of what should be possible, instead of what's already possible. If the original skew in class powers is still present but with builds instead of individual classes dominating (and needed to be played a certain way, or else too bad) then there may be some fogginess about what balance is, but one thing is clear: it's nothing to adjust by because it's not universal or as real as it seems when it's given as a reason for this-or-that.



I don't think such fundamental changes in playing style will be considered, though, as not needing backup gear for each situation. I find it tacky to have a ton of stuff to switch into; that, itself, is just my own taste in playing. So I guess get used to having items in your slots, or get used to being dominated in PvP!


To address the topic, though: numerically, you don't need to use all the "gimped" sneaker gear to sneak by most people, since you don't need it maxed to have a high chance of getting by them. So you can use some of it, and gear the rest for whatever you're missing.

Rhine Jive Click

Posts : 42
Join date : 2011-03-13
Location : In my profile.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Professor Plum on Tue May 03, 2011 9:03 am

You can max it even if you want to, with no detriment. (Not that you need to)


Yeh, alot of people stick an item in a slot and leave it their forever.
Swapping an ice resist ring against an ice-storming mage, or a 5/- magic resist belt against a magical bolt / ims spamming mage is fantastic - but it's not like you'll go around wearing it all the time.
Likewise, putting in save gear at the expense of your ac (Hardiness boots for yellow boots, for example) is the best idea when you're fighting a bunch of pure mages, etc.
avatar
Professor Plum

Posts : 783
Join date : 2011-04-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: From old forums: Sneak vs detect

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum