XP Loss - Why?

So, fundamentally, why is there XP loss on death?

It's been said that without a penalty associated with death, people will do foolish things. This is the argument used on more serious RP servers, and I don't feel it applies on one where being lvl 40 is one of the principal goals; and a near-necessity for one of the other principle goals, which is PvP.

The other main goal, I find, is having fun. I, personally, don't find it fun when at times when you can't dedicate entire days to play it becomes head-buttingly frustrating to die and lose more than what you were able to gain. This is because XP loss on death basically equates to saying: "you failed at this aspect of the game, so the last X hours you spent here are completely gone from your life with nothing at all to show for it".

I'm asking why this is the case. Can't we just get another penalty, like a death tax to whatever forces are making people magically come back to life, where at lvl 40 the player has to pay the debt back? In special items, maybe. Or has to fetch those special items before being able to progress past 30, or something.

I'm just tired of silly things like bosses my lvl being able to kill all my characters in 3 hits keep me from sinking at least 6 hours per character trying to get past lvl 12 - that in itself is another topic. But really, why must a complete loss of people's time be a possibility in the game, let alone contingent to having a less-than-optimized build with transferred items out the back end?

Rhine Jive Click wrote:
It's been said that without a penalty associated with death, people will do foolish things.

Even with a death penalty i see people doing foolish things. xD

Eh. A penalty is necessary in order to make the achievements really mean something. Finishing that really hard dungeon isn't going to mean anything if some other guy could do it by dying and respawning all day long. And doing it well has no meaning if it doesn't really matter whether the tank had to be raised six times, or if everyone made it through okay the first time around.

Removing (or substantially lightening) the penalty also makes taking all of those nasty risks a given. Right now, players have to weigh the risk of fighting an incredibly dangerous opponent (and plundering his sweet loot!) against the very real chance that they may die and lose something tangible. Boot the penalty, and suddenly it's no longer a question of whether taking that risk is worth it; players will simply take the risk every single time.

Which presents some unfortunate implications for the economy. Not just with regards to plundering loot, but on a smaller scale, too: right now, if the tank is taking a bit of heat, I'm going to break out a heal scroll. However, if I knew he wasn't really going to lose anything for dying, I'd likely shrug my shoulders and let things fall as they may. Why spend lots of gold to keep him patched if I could simply raise him right after should the worst happen? Remove the stakes from combat, and victory will no longer be worth paying for.

Of course, that doesn't answer the question of, "how stringent should the penalty be?" Personally, I think the current penalty is quite fine. On a typical death, I lose about as much as I'd made in the dungeon I was in. That's hardly debilitating, but it's enough to keep me on my toes. Heck, it seems "just right" to me.

But it's a purely subjective matter. There's no "right" answer.

KumoKumo wrote:

Of course, that doesn't answer the question of, "how stringent should the penalty be?" Personally, I think the current penalty is quite fine. On a typical death, I lose about as much as I'd made in the dungeon I was in. That's hardly debilitating, but it's enough to keep me on my toes. Heck, it seems "just right" to me.

I don't know if I believe that. I've tried adventuring both solo and with small like-level groups and experience is never enough to cover the losses incurred by a single death here. Never.

What level are the characters you're saying gain the same amount they would have lost by dying? Where are they adventuring? How big is your group?

It's amusing, the answer is always 'teamwork, or be afk for hours' whenever the experience gain or death penalty is questioned. It's often the highest level pcs that do the conversation ending too.

It's rather a shame that unless one has quite in-depth knowledge of the server, proper equipment, and ample time for hours and hours of grinding one really can't participate in the PVP or higher end PVE stuff here.

Last time I checked, post XP change? I was about level 35 and traveling with a few others (not that it mattered; didn't alter the XP at all). I might have come out about 1-2k behind, but I'm not going to niggle that much over the details. Death always seems painful when it happens, but when weighed against the 780k it takes to reach level 40, it's nearly always a drop in the bucket, if that.

I did a large portion of my leveling post XP change with my first (and only) level 40 here. I did not receive significant "twinking"; I received a couple hand me downs, and then worked for the rest of my gear legitimately. I had no trouble whatsoever leveling; I felt I moved along at a fairly fast pace, though that is, of course, a subjective notion. I spent most of my time traveling with groups. When searching the fort failed me, I hit up others via tells. There was nearly always at least one other active player willing to do something, though when there wasn't, I could still solo. Look around and I'm sure you'll find there's plenty you can do on your own.

And a very, very tiny portion of my experience came from AFKing. Heck, for the first 25 levels or so, I didn't even bother.

Lord Surge wrote:I don't know if I believe that. I've tried adventuring both solo and with small like-level groups and experience is never enough to cover the losses incurred by a single death here. Never.

...Where the hell do you grind? My trips are mostly 5+k xp....

Three level 18's went through most of the Headlands and got about 18k xp in 1 trip for 117xp each. You loose around 4.6k at that level. Lower levels if your not doing well you can just follow a summon around. It really is not very difficult. If you are finding it is your just poorly equipped or doing something wrong. The best way to get equipped is meet those in your respective forts.

Eh. A penalty is necessary in order to make the achievements really mean something. Finishing that really hard dungeon isn't going to mean anything if some other guy could do it by dying and respawning all day long. And doing it well has no meaning if it doesn't really matter whether the tank had to be raised six times, or if everyone made it through okay the first time around.

My limited time playing means nothing because I have to go to bed 2 hours later than predicted just to round up the level I was 1k from when I logged in (out of sheer bull-headedness, but hey it helps quantify what I and others are talking about).

Also note that everyone who posted about the ease of soloing here plays primarily a caster. Just an aside - everyone else can't call on super summons - skeletons die even before you get to the forest.

Regarding the economy, the solution would be as simple as raising the cost of Raise Dead scrolls, since clerics can cast both that and Heal anyway.

I went on a trip with a small group yesterday and for 4 areas I got about 1.5k XP. Just another anecdote to contradict any fundamental principle one might try to illustrate by stating "this guy got this much here" - you need a team, or to be a caster, or to have tweaked gear to advance reliably past a certain point. The small group I leveled with was the only active people I saw that day, and they were gone after that trip; most days, it's the same AFK bunch or this one guy who refuses to even answer any text and keeps making new characters with names referencing testicles.

For all the flaws people see in what I'm saying, I'm still not seeing anything -positive- associated with XP loss and making time disappear down the toilet if you can't play "the right way" - I'm being ironic about this point even though Anphillia Genesis was my first server ever and I know it quite well, because it's the worst server I've ever encountered as far as undocumented changes go. Possible loss makes time more valuable? I don't see it in a game where you can be fighting against your CR and suddenly 4 crits kill you in 1/2 a second.

What risks would people take that they currently don't? Going for that Impossible monster that gives less XP than the Challenging one, and takes twice as long to drop? Taking on the boss of some epic place for loot? Fat chance of beating it; you're better off making a sanctuary cleric and getting all the loot for free with 0 risk. Risk is not an argument.

What would be wrong with a death tax? Say someone dies, they get a token. That token blocks them from getting past 20 (numbers are for example purposes at this point). So when that character reaches 20 he has to go see the fort priest and be given a task to get a Magical Jar of Urine (again, for example) to have the token removed. The next token applies to lvl 25, 30, etc. It's something -more- to do instead of having your time just taken up and tossed in the trash.

I like the XP penalty for death.. yea its sucks when it happens but it keeps you on your feet and always vulnerable.. instead of hoping to get that last crit at near death to kill a monster you find yourself running not wanting to die cause it costs more then just a raise scroll to come back from it. It makes the game and adventure more interesting in my opinion. Comes down to this people stop trying to be a hero and kill the whole pile of monsters at once.. lure em in and kill 1-2 at a time and you wont have to worry about death as much!

Rhine Jive Click wrote:
I went on a trip with a small group yesterday and for 4 areas I got about 1.5k XP.

What level is your character and those you were traveling with and where did you go because that number just doesn't seem right.

lure em in and kill 1-2 at a time and you wont have to worry about death as much!

This is the dynamic of progress that I refer to when I say that it's head-buttingly frustrating to progress unless you can devote entire days to playing. It's one of the purposes of the module to have PvP, and the guards are balaced for lvl 40 assaults - so why must it take months to get to 40, unless, once again, you can idle all day or play several hours each day? I'm not saying that's -inherently- bad, I'm saying it's not friendly to people who don't have a whole lot of time.

Besides, I can't judge what others find amusing but it doesn't take 1 run of an area to level up past its CR. So the luring technique means instead of doing the same area maybe 7 times (to border on low risk as was suggested, instead of going tot he higher CR place) over a few invested hours, not counting deaths, you're doing the same area 7 times over triple that time and pulling the same series of clicks and tabs hundreds of times. Whose idea of fun is this, honestly?

What level is your character and those you were traveling with and where did you go because that number just doesn't seem right.

I was ECL 17 and we went to the end of Seeska and back. I know it's not ideal for my level, but that was the only time I was in a party in days, which is kind of my point: saying "get summons or get a team" isn't always an option. This paradigm is unnecessary for casters, however, as I've seen and experienced - but that's beside the point.

As it is, there is a very narrow definition of "the right way" of doing everything. If you don't fall into this trench, then death becomes not a hazard but a daily obstacle that literally takes away all you did in the time you were logged on - sometimes for silly non-risk reasons like your summon was boxing you into a corner, the Outlaw Thug was locked on to you even after you respawned (after being killed by him) and kills you in 2 hits for the second time in 10 minutes, ants that need to roll 20 to hit you all decide to do just that at once and you have goodbye to 100 HP in 1 second, to give concrete examples.

The attitude of "be more careful and play this-or-that way" makes sense in a world where everything is balanced and free of bugs and flaws. This is not that world.

That's why I don't see a downside to having an alternate penalty to death than the one thing people put themselves at risk to gain in the first place. Gaining it means investing time, and losing it means losing time.

It's rather a shame that unless one has quite in-depth knowledge of the server, proper equipment, and ample time for hours and hours of grinding one really can't participate in the PVP or higher end PVE stuff here.

Thank you!!!

I died alot, and i mean alot whilst leveling, i had no ac at all - no UMD (Yes leveling with no heal scrolls or summon scrolls) and to boot i used a two handed wep, but you quickly learn to use the map to your advantage and travel with groups.

The only way i solo'd was to try and fight stuff one on one, and you can do this, i know you can! (because ive done it) use the map, find a bottle neck point. i died so much it was unreal there would be days where i would be way under my starting xp, and sure it got me a little angry and pissed me off a great deal, but taking that xp loss on death and you can bet your ass i'd have just ran at Dra, died, orbed.. ran back to dra until i killed him. I'm sorry to basicly repeat stuff that has been said, but a no xp loss would take away the reward, when i hit 40 i almost hit the town like it was my birthday.

All i can really say is if your a damage power house, really try find a tank buddy, or if your a tank then try find a powerhouse buddy, i know its easier said then done, but i managed it, and im more then sure your fort will help you battle your way through the difficult levels (Hell im sure you could get away with RP'ing that your a preist of the Church of Tri in Ranzington as an excuse to travel with the opposite faction 'Gathering informantion on there skills')

But seriously i died more then you would think possible, if this was the old Moths forum there would be a special rank for me 'Mr. Death' i'm sure, you just have to grit your teeth and bare it, unfortunatly bad things happen and you die, loose abit of xp, but quiting wont get you that xp back, only way you get it back is if you look at it and start thinking why you died 'Oh maybe i should have bottlenecked them in that doorway, and took them one on one' 'Maybe i should have kited them around abit and used a summon to perfect my escape' thinks will look up and once you get to 40 you will feel a whole lot better about it, the road to success is a long twisting road my friend, but everyone meets the end of it eventualy.

-Rab

I've run the gauntlet many times myself. However, listing coping techniques for loss of time, when it isn't always avoidable given the imbalances, bugs, and flat out crap potential of the d20 system is beside the point I'm trying to make.

To put it another way:

you just have to grit your teeth and bare it

- is exactly what I'm challenging. Why would you have to? It's assumed XP loss should be part of a server because it's part of every server. I'm saying it doesn't need to be. Other penalties than sheer wasted time can make hitting 40 rewarding without that icky feeling that you were doing it just to spite the game engine for screwing you out of 2 days of your life (if you add up the time catching up XP, I'm sure I'm in the ballpark there). I've been to 40 on Genesis, when the XP was much slower than here, and it's not the deaths that made it rewarding; it took months getting there.

Risk and reward would have little meaning without a stake. It's the fact that you can lose that makes the game aspect, well, gamey; it gives all those numbers a bit of meaning. Put another way, it's like the difference between a game of poker where everyone is using real money, and one where everyone always decides to go all in. The former tends to be strategic and exciting, because each hand has inherent meaning. The latter? Not so much.

I'm not for the XP penalty simply because "everyone else does it". Rather, at an abstract level, it really is the only way to go about it. Any penalty is going to boil down to lost time, because permanent consequences simply aren't an option.

... At least, I don't think so. Is anyone actually for the possibility of perma-death or permanent attribute decreases for dying? Or random item loss, maybe?

Generally speaking, those who have alot of time - or those that are already 40, contest anything modifying xp gains / losses that would make it easier for people to reach the end-game point.

Alot of the people who are 40 spent most, if not all, of their time under the old xp system which gave a whole bunch more (Which is, arguably, wrong). The xp loss was still significant enough then to stop people running at dragons, repeatedly, armed with nothing but a stick and a host of battle-crys.

So why, I ask, has the death penalty not been lowered in proportion to the xp decrease?

Also, why is XP gain low enough to justify the hours and hours of afk'ing? There is an argument to be made for attracting new players here, but any new player would quickly leave when they found a whole host of unresponsive people 5 minutes into playing. (Also, Green Peace would kick your arse for the promotion of such a needless waste of power )

I'm also unsure of the purpose of prolonging people reaching 40. Attracting a crowd that hasn't much time to play seems like a good thing. I understand that it will make it less of an achievement, but it's not the only thing one could achieve. For example:

• More end-game content, even with mere visual /token rewards could be produced. (Things like the WoW achievement system and Steam achievements. They're pretty meaningless to gameplay, but promote playing)
  
  
• Roleplay could be encouraged much more than it is, not simply with XP handouts (Which are sporadic even in the best of DM environments), but with real influences upon the Island.

Nearly all RPG's and MMO's are moving towards this model, because it caters for those with little time and those with alot of time.

Just as an example; It might take an hour to obtain a +1 CON armour, but it takes 10 to obtain a +1 CON armour that can poly-morph you into a chicken. Effectively the same thing, but one's better (It's not, but, you know which one you'd want - unless you hate chickens, then you don't know).

KumoKumo wrote:......

I'm not for the XP penalty simply because "everyone else does it". Rather, at an abstract level, it really is the only way to go about it. Any penalty is going to boil down to lost time, because permanent consequences simply aren't an option.

... At least, I don't think so. Is anyone actually for the possibility of perma-death or permanent attribute decreases for dying? Or random item loss, maybe?

How about a finite number of lives

like 15 or so... but no way to tell what you are on except by keeping track yourself :p

or maybe even like a d20 roll on number of respawns each char gets

WHERE do you get the +1 Con armor that turns you into a chicken!?! :O

Someone mentioned this to me and I have spent the last few days searching the cupboards of Anphillia for it.

Risk and reward would have little meaning without a stake. It's the fact that you can lose that makes the game aspect, well, gamey; it gives all those numbers a bit of meaning. Put another way, it's like the difference between a game of poker where everyone is using real money, and one where everyone always decides to go all in. The former tends to be strategic and exciting, because each hand has inherent meaning. The latter? Not so much.

This presupposes that the fun part of the game is grinding the same areas over and over and over and over. I dare say it's something people do just to get to 40, and not out of the sheer enjoyment of making the same series of clicks several hundreds of times. Finding a new area to fight in is fun, and would illustrate your point here; but how many people go to Border Lyne and places like that, instead of the "standard" places to level-up at their CR?

I'd also like to know what is the fun of a strategy when it only involves, as said before, making the same few series of clicks over and over and over and over on the mobs. Oh, but this time I'll do it around a corner! Sorry, the challenging strategy is in PvP.

PvM can be seen as a way to reach 40 and get loot. Getting loot can (and is) frequently more efficient with a sanctuary cleric with no risk involved. That leaves getting to 40 as the goal for players, which is hindered by a significant time barrier.

I'm not for the XP penalty simply because "everyone else does it". Rather, at an abstract level, it really is the only way to go about it. Any penalty is going to boil down to lost time, because permanent consequences simply aren't an option.

It's the only way to go about it because you say it's the only way to go about it; that's begging the question, or begging the answer, I'm not sure in this case. The discussion is not at all about a choice between losing XP/time and losing permanent attributes. It's about an alternaive to losing time from your life because the engine eats all but 50 000 gold and takes out thousands of XP which is the thing you were fighting monsters to get in the first place.

I've made one suggestion as to how to get around it, and I'm sure there are other possibilities people can think of. Furthermore the suggestion I made doesn't boil down to lost time, since it adds to things that people can do in their forts instead of taxing the player behind them.

To adress another off-the-mark (sorry, but seriously) tangent that was brought up: if you're going to kill Dra'Grem by respawning over and over:
- Good luck getting there;
- enjoy all the time it'll take getting there and killing him;
- what's bad if you're successful - you invested time in it and it sure wouldn't be the only ludicrous thing on the server.

This is partly why I say that XP loss is in place because it's standard; most of these arguments posit the necessity of XP loss as the reason why it should be there. There are hundreds of whacky buggy things so why would killing a dragon over several lives be strange? Like I said, if it were a perfectly smooth-running module it would be consistent to say that XP loss is part of the game; but this is a 10 year old game where monsters can see through invisibility if you don't do it in front of them, mobs ignore corner sneaking, level 4 mobs can shoot Cloudkill at you from a scroll, collision circles are such that you can get trapped behind a pebble, and the list goes on.

I don't see the reward in losing hours of my life to these things, when the goal (for me and I dare say a number of others) isn't in the fun of repeatedly killing the same things.

Professor Plum wrote:Alot of the people who are 40 spent most, if not all, of their time under the old xp system which gave a whole bunch more (Which is, arguably, wrong).

Not true. The old xp system gave only slightly more xp if you were soloing without any summons what so ever. My level 40 character didn't have the luxury of being able to solo anything as all he can do well is heal. So for him this xp system would have given much more as he always traveled at least with one other person and group xp now is > before.

Professor Plum wrote:
Also, why is XP gain low enough to justify the hours and hours of afk'ing? There is an argument to be made for attracting new players here, but any new player would quickly leave when they found a whole host of unresponsive people 5 minutes into playing.

It does attract people to the server I know that is how I was first attracted to the server. When I realized a lot were afk I had already met some cool people and wanted to stay regardless. Not to mention its nice having a combat log letting you know whats been happening. Who has killed who, assaulted ect. Also people can leave you tells and let you know things who otherwise you wouldnt have contact with if you just logged off.

Professor Plum wrote:
I'm also unsure of the purpose of prolonging people reaching 40. Attracting a crowd that hasn't much time to play seems like a good thing.

We could just give everyone level 40 when they login then people with very little time could participate in hig level PvE and PvP.

Professor Plum wrote:

• More end-game content, even with mere visual /token rewards could be produced. (Things like the WoW achievement system and Steam achievements. They're pretty meaningless to gameplay, but promote playing)
  
  
• Roleplay could be encouraged much more than it is, not simply with XP handouts (Which are sporadic even in the best of DM environments), but with real influences upon the Island.

We are working on things similar to this.

Professor Plum wrote:
Just as an example; It might take an hour to obtain a +1 CON armour, but it takes 10 to obtain a +1 CON armour that can poly-morph you into a chicken. Effectively the same thing, but one's better (It's not, but, you know which one you'd want - unless you hate chickens, then you don't know).

We would either have people posting about how 10 hours just for a polymorph chicken add on isnt right. People who want to be chickens dont have that much time. Or people would look at it and laugh saying 10 hours for a polymorph chicken!? Pssh I would rather go mining right before a server reset.

Rhine Jive Click wrote:
This presupposes that the fun part of the game is grinding the same areas over and over and over and over. I dare say it's something people do just to get to 40, and not out of the sheer enjoyment of making the same series of clicks several hundreds of times. Finding a new area to fight in is fun, and would illustrate your point here; but how many people go to Border Lyne and places like that, instead of the "standard" places to level-up at their CR?

There are a few different places to go at each level to keep things interesting. I go to different areas with different groups of characters because if I kept going to the same place to just grind grind grind I would be bored. RP is fun as well and we aim to have more RP that is world shaping in the future.

Rhine Jive Click wrote:
making the same series of clicks several hundreds of times

Correct me if I am wrong but I sense a tone of easy, boredom, and redundancy from the above. If that's the case and

Rhine Jive Click wrote: the challenging strategy is in PvP.

how are you dieing so much as to lose hours of your life? Or why is it so hard for you? Ultimately you can pessimistically reduce any game to that base negative statement of making the same series of clicks several hundreds of times and wasting hours of your life.
Brings this to mind.

SnarleysAngel wrote:

KumoKumo wrote:......

I'm not for the XP penalty simply because "everyone else does it". Rather, at an abstract level, it really is the only way to go about it. Any penalty is going to boil down to lost time, because permanent consequences simply aren't an option.

... At least, I don't think so. Is anyone actually for the possibility of perma-death or permanent attribute decreases for dying? Or random item loss, maybe?

How about a finite number of lives

like 15 or so... but no way to tell what you are on except by keeping track yourself :p

or maybe even like a d20 roll on number of respawns each char gets

Right, because permadeath is even better than heavy experience loss (it isn't).

I like the idea of perma-death eventually or maybe potential perma-death at every death like a 1 to 5% chance... but I'm ok without it.


Great clip Felix thanks for finding it

Right, because permadeath is even better than heavy experience loss (it isn't).

I would have to agree. I would def not stick around if perma-death was the consequence of dying. Not a huge fan of the idea of random item loss either. Exp you can always get back- if I lost that one item that is nearly impossible to find and somehow it wound up in my possession... I would be done. In fact, I think that very thing happened to me on another Anphillia server and I stopped playing. A friend of mine gave me this dagger that was extremely rare right before he retired his character...Of course, it also involved the DM's punishing everyone for something only a handful of individuals did- multiple levels were lost (and it was harder to level on this server), my dagger amongst other items were gone... but I digress.

There are worse alt to the experience loss. It is a bit steep but it keeps me going. A few weeks back I was killed by a particular group and went back, exacted my revenge- I got to strut (IC of course)

I personally am not extremely fond of the party exp penalty- I understand why it is there to a point but it also seems like it could discourage one to necessarily want company...on a server were parties are promoted and insisted upon? Now I'm not saying the penalty is extreme... but if it takes me forever to kill something, with a ton of effort and thought put into it.... is it too much to ask for some descent exp in return?! (35 pnts is kind of a joke bagging one who is overpowering but I did it!)
just seems to be going against that particular grain...

[quote="DarthKittyBoo"]

I personally am not extremely fond of the party exp penalty- I understand why it is there to a point but it also seems like it could discourage one to necessarily want company...on a server were parties are promoted and insisted upon? Now I'm not saying the penalty is extreme... but if it takes me forever to kill something, with a ton of effort and thought put into it.... is it too much to ask for some descent exp in return?! (35 pnts is kind of a joke bagging one who is overpowering but I did it!)
just seems to be going against that particular grain...

I don't think there is a party exp penalty here. There is a penalty if you are a lower level and outside of a certain number of levels with people you are killing with, but not sure what the acceptable CR level range is nor how the penalty works. So, if you are going around with people who are much higher level than you just remember it had probably be for a better reason than just grinding xp or you might can find a better, safer way to do that.