XP Loss - Why?

So, fundamentally, why is there XP loss on death?

It's been said that without a penalty associated with death, people will do foolish things. This is the argument used on more serious RP servers, and I don't feel it applies on one where being lvl 40 is one of the principal goals; and a near-necessity for one of the other principle goals, which is PvP.

The other main goal, I find, is having fun. I, personally, don't find it fun when at times when you can't dedicate entire days to play it becomes head-buttingly frustrating to die and lose more than what you were able to gain. This is because XP loss on death basically equates to saying: "you failed at this aspect of the game, so the last X hours you spent here are completely gone from your life with nothing at all to show for it".

I'm asking why this is the case. Can't we just get another penalty, like a death tax to whatever forces are making people magically come back to life, where at lvl 40 the player has to pay the debt back? In special items, maybe. Or has to fetch those special items before being able to progress past 30, or something.

I'm just tired of silly things like bosses my lvl being able to kill all my characters in 3 hits keep me from sinking at least 6 hours per character trying to get past lvl 12 - that in itself is another topic. But really, why must a complete loss of people's time be a possibility in the game, let alone contingent to having a less-than-optimized build with transferred items out the back end?

Rhine Jive Click wrote:
It's been said that without a penalty associated with death, people will do foolish things.

Even with a death penalty i see people doing foolish things. xD

Eh. A penalty is necessary in order to make the achievements really mean something. Finishing that really hard dungeon isn't going to mean anything if some other guy could do it by dying and respawning all day long. And doing it well has no meaning if it doesn't really matter whether the tank had to be raised six times, or if everyone made it through okay the first time around.

Removing (or substantially lightening) the penalty also makes taking all of those nasty risks a given. Right now, players have to weigh the risk of fighting an incredibly dangerous opponent (and plundering his sweet loot!) against the very real chance that they may die and lose something tangible. Boot the penalty, and suddenly it's no longer a question of whether taking that risk is worth it; players will simply take the risk every single time.

Which presents some unfortunate implications for the economy. Not just with regards to plundering loot, but on a smaller scale, too: right now, if the tank is taking a bit of heat, I'm going to break out a heal scroll. However, if I knew he wasn't really going to lose anything for dying, I'd likely shrug my shoulders and let things fall as they may. Why spend lots of gold to keep him patched if I could simply raise him right after should the worst happen? Remove the stakes from combat, and victory will no longer be worth paying for.

Of course, that doesn't answer the question of, "how stringent should the penalty be?" Personally, I think the current penalty is quite fine. On a typical death, I lose about as much as I'd made in the dungeon I was in. That's hardly debilitating, but it's enough to keep me on my toes. Heck, it seems "just right" to me.

But it's a purely subjective matter. There's no "right" answer.

KumoKumo wrote:

Of course, that doesn't answer the question of, "how stringent should the penalty be?" Personally, I think the current penalty is quite fine. On a typical death, I lose about as much as I'd made in the dungeon I was in. That's hardly debilitating, but it's enough to keep me on my toes. Heck, it seems "just right" to me.

I don't know if I believe that. I've tried adventuring both solo and with small like-level groups and experience is never enough to cover the losses incurred by a single death here. Never.

What level are the characters you're saying gain the same amount they would have lost by dying? Where are they adventuring? How big is your group?

It's amusing, the answer is always 'teamwork, or be afk for hours' whenever the experience gain or death penalty is questioned. It's often the highest level pcs that do the conversation ending too.

It's rather a shame that unless one has quite in-depth knowledge of the server, proper equipment, and ample time for hours and hours of grinding one really can't participate in the PVP or higher end PVE stuff here.

Last time I checked, post XP change? I was about level 35 and traveling with a few others (not that it mattered; didn't alter the XP at all). I might have come out about 1-2k behind, but I'm not going to niggle that much over the details. Death always seems painful when it happens, but when weighed against the 780k it takes to reach level 40, it's nearly always a drop in the bucket, if that.

I did a large portion of my leveling post XP change with my first (and only) level 40 here. I did not receive significant "twinking"; I received a couple hand me downs, and then worked for the rest of my gear legitimately. I had no trouble whatsoever leveling; I felt I moved along at a fairly fast pace, though that is, of course, a subjective notion. I spent most of my time traveling with groups. When searching the fort failed me, I hit up others via tells. There was nearly always at least one other active player willing to do something, though when there wasn't, I could still solo. Look around and I'm sure you'll find there's plenty you can do on your own.

And a very, very tiny portion of my experience came from AFKing. Heck, for the first 25 levels or so, I didn't even bother.

Lord Surge wrote:I don't know if I believe that. I've tried adventuring both solo and with small like-level groups and experience is never enough to cover the losses incurred by a single death here. Never.

...Where the hell do you grind? My trips are mostly 5+k xp....

Three level 18's went through most of the Headlands and got about 18k xp in 1 trip for 117xp each. You loose around 4.6k at that level. Lower levels if your not doing well you can just follow a summon around. It really is not very difficult. If you are finding it is your just poorly equipped or doing something wrong. The best way to get equipped is meet those in your respective forts.

Eh. A penalty is necessary in order to make the achievements really mean something. Finishing that really hard dungeon isn't going to mean anything if some other guy could do it by dying and respawning all day long. And doing it well has no meaning if it doesn't really matter whether the tank had to be raised six times, or if everyone made it through okay the first time around.

My limited time playing means nothing because I have to go to bed 2 hours later than predicted just to round up the level I was 1k from when I logged in (out of sheer bull-headedness, but hey it helps quantify what I and others are talking about).

Also note that everyone who posted about the ease of soloing here plays primarily a caster. Just an aside - everyone else can't call on super summons - skeletons die even before you get to the forest.

Regarding the economy, the solution would be as simple as raising the cost of Raise Dead scrolls, since clerics can cast both that and Heal anyway.

I went on a trip with a small group yesterday and for 4 areas I got about 1.5k XP. Just another anecdote to contradict any fundamental principle one might try to illustrate by stating "this guy got this much here" - you need a team, or to be a caster, or to have tweaked gear to advance reliably past a certain point. The small group I leveled with was the only active people I saw that day, and they were gone after that trip; most days, it's the same AFK bunch or this one guy who refuses to even answer any text and keeps making new characters with names referencing testicles.

For all the flaws people see in what I'm saying, I'm still not seeing anything -positive- associated with XP loss and making time disappear down the toilet if you can't play "the right way" - I'm being ironic about this point even though Anphillia Genesis was my first server ever and I know it quite well, because it's the worst server I've ever encountered as far as undocumented changes go. Possible loss makes time more valuable? I don't see it in a game where you can be fighting against your CR and suddenly 4 crits kill you in 1/2 a second.

What risks would people take that they currently don't? Going for that Impossible monster that gives less XP than the Challenging one, and takes twice as long to drop? Taking on the boss of some epic place for loot? Fat chance of beating it; you're better off making a sanctuary cleric and getting all the loot for free with 0 risk. Risk is not an argument.

What would be wrong with a death tax? Say someone dies, they get a token. That token blocks them from getting past 20 (numbers are for example purposes at this point). So when that character reaches 20 he has to go see the fort priest and be given a task to get a Magical Jar of Urine (again, for example) to have the token removed. The next token applies to lvl 25, 30, etc. It's something -more- to do instead of having your time just taken up and tossed in the trash.

I like the XP penalty for death.. yea its sucks when it happens but it keeps you on your feet and always vulnerable.. instead of hoping to get that last crit at near death to kill a monster you find yourself running not wanting to die cause it costs more then just a raise scroll to come back from it. It makes the game and adventure more interesting in my opinion. Comes down to this people stop trying to be a hero and kill the whole pile of monsters at once.. lure em in and kill 1-2 at a time and you wont have to worry about death as much!

Rhine Jive Click wrote:
I went on a trip with a small group yesterday and for 4 areas I got about 1.5k XP.

What level is your character and those you were traveling with and where did you go because that number just doesn't seem right.

lure em in and kill 1-2 at a time and you wont have to worry about death as much!

This is the dynamic of progress that I refer to when I say that it's head-buttingly frustrating to progress unless you can devote entire days to playing. It's one of the purposes of the module to have PvP, and the guards are balaced for lvl 40 assaults - so why must it take months to get to 40, unless, once again, you can idle all day or play several hours each day? I'm not saying that's -inherently- bad, I'm saying it's not friendly to people who don't have a whole lot of time.

Besides, I can't judge what others find amusing but it doesn't take 1 run of an area to level up past its CR. So the luring technique means instead of doing the same area maybe 7 times (to border on low risk as was suggested, instead of going tot he higher CR place) over a few invested hours, not counting deaths, you're doing the same area 7 times over triple that time and pulling the same series of clicks and tabs hundreds of times. Whose idea of fun is this, honestly?

What level is your character and those you were traveling with and where did you go because that number just doesn't seem right.

I was ECL 17 and we went to the end of Seeska and back. I know it's not ideal for my level, but that was the only time I was in a party in days, which is kind of my point: saying "get summons or get a team" isn't always an option. This paradigm is unnecessary for casters, however, as I've seen and experienced - but that's beside the point.

As it is, there is a very narrow definition of "the right way" of doing everything. If you don't fall into this trench, then death becomes not a hazard but a daily obstacle that literally takes away all you did in the time you were logged on - sometimes for silly non-risk reasons like your summon was boxing you into a corner, the Outlaw Thug was locked on to you even after you respawned (after being killed by him) and kills you in 2 hits for the second time in 10 minutes, ants that need to roll 20 to hit you all decide to do just that at once and you have goodbye to 100 HP in 1 second, to give concrete examples.

The attitude of "be more careful and play this-or-that way" makes sense in a world where everything is balanced and free of bugs and flaws. This is not that world.

That's why I don't see a downside to having an alternate penalty to death than the one thing people put themselves at risk to gain in the first place. Gaining it means investing time, and losing it means losing time.

It's rather a shame that unless one has quite in-depth knowledge of the server, proper equipment, and ample time for hours and hours of grinding one really can't participate in the PVP or higher end PVE stuff here.

Thank you!!!

I died alot, and i mean alot whilst leveling, i had no ac at all - no UMD (Yes leveling with no heal scrolls or summon scrolls) and to boot i used a two handed wep, but you quickly learn to use the map to your advantage and travel with groups.

The only way i solo'd was to try and fight stuff one on one, and you can do this, i know you can! (because ive done it) use the map, find a bottle neck point. i died so much it was unreal there would be days where i would be way under my starting xp, and sure it got me a little angry and pissed me off a great deal, but taking that xp loss on death and you can bet your ass i'd have just ran at Dra, died, orbed.. ran back to dra until i killed him. I'm sorry to basicly repeat stuff that has been said, but a no xp loss would take away the reward, when i hit 40 i almost hit the town like it was my birthday.

All i can really say is if your a damage power house, really try find a tank buddy, or if your a tank then try find a powerhouse buddy, i know its easier said then done, but i managed it, and im more then sure your fort will help you battle your way through the difficult levels (Hell im sure you could get away with RP'ing that your a preist of the Church of Tri in Ranzington as an excuse to travel with the opposite faction 'Gathering informantion on there skills')

But seriously i died more then you would think possible, if this was the old Moths forum there would be a special rank for me 'Mr. Death' i'm sure, you just have to grit your teeth and bare it, unfortunatly bad things happen and you die, loose abit of xp, but quiting wont get you that xp back, only way you get it back is if you look at it and start thinking why you died 'Oh maybe i should have bottlenecked them in that doorway, and took them one on one' 'Maybe i should have kited them around abit and used a summon to perfect my escape' thinks will look up and once you get to 40 you will feel a whole lot better about it, the road to success is a long twisting road my friend, but everyone meets the end of it eventualy.

-Rab

I've run the gauntlet many times myself. However, listing coping techniques for loss of time, when it isn't always avoidable given the imbalances, bugs, and flat out crap potential of the d20 system is beside the point I'm trying to make.

To put it another way:

you just have to grit your teeth and bare it

- is exactly what I'm challenging. Why would you have to? It's assumed XP loss should be part of a server because it's part of every server. I'm saying it doesn't need to be. Other penalties than sheer wasted time can make hitting 40 rewarding without that icky feeling that you were doing it just to spite the game engine for screwing you out of 2 days of your life (if you add up the time catching up XP, I'm sure I'm in the ballpark there). I've been to 40 on Genesis, when the XP was much slower than here, and it's not the deaths that made it rewarding; it took months getting there.

Risk and reward would have little meaning without a stake. It's the fact that you can lose that makes the game aspect, well, gamey; it gives all those numbers a bit of meaning. Put another way, it's like the difference between a game of poker where everyone is using real money, and one where everyone always decides to go all in. The former tends to be strategic and exciting, because each hand has inherent meaning. The latter? Not so much.

I'm not for the XP penalty simply because "everyone else does it". Rather, at an abstract level, it really is the only way to go about it. Any penalty is going to boil down to lost time, because permanent consequences simply aren't an option.

... At least, I don't think so. Is anyone actually for the possibility of perma-death or permanent attribute decreases for dying? Or random item loss, maybe?