build ideas?

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build ideas?

Post  DarthKittyBoo on Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:56 am

First I'm sorry if this doesn't belong in here or if I'm not supposed to ask...

Also have been working on a ranger/rdd/bd build with the cbc for a few weeks now... may I ask opinions if tht combo would even work? I've been using the old moth forums for reference concerning changes and such...(I don"t know how up to date that one is anyways seeing as when I was looking at shifter it said that things morph wuth your char and I was told its not so)


Last edited by DarthKittyBoo on Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : title didn"t match body)

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Re: build ideas?

Post  J. Persinne on Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:33 am

Nothing wrong with asking for advice, and I'm happy to help. You're also welcome to shoot me a tell in game (usual character name, Alexander Samaras) if you'd like to brainstorm in real time.

Anyway, the standard RDD build on Moth's was a Bard/PDK/RDD, which used PDK buffs to raise its AB; it looked something like this (spoiler boxed so as to avoid cluttering the thread):

Spoiler:
Class: Bard 9 / RDD 26 / PDK 5
Race: Elf [Dark elf]
Alignment: Netural Evil
Hit Points: 380ish (1300 in shape)
saves: fort 25 (36)
reflex 23 (32)
will 28 (28)
BAB: 26
Atribute points:
STR 8
DEX 10
CON 6
WIS 12
INT 18
CHA 16 (26)

Level:
01.Bard: Luck of Heros
02.Bard:
03.Bard:Mounted Combat
04.Bard:
05.Bard:
06.RDD:Exotic weapons
07.RDD:
08.RDD:
09.RDD:Weapon focus Kukri
10.RDD:
11.RDD: 2 ride 2 listen 2 spot 1 intimidate 1 persuade
12.PDK:Improved Critical Kukri
13.PDK:
14.PDK:
15.PDK:Blind Fight
16.PDK:
17.RDD:
18.RDD:Knock Down
19.Bard:
20.Bard: 20 hide 20 MS
21.RDD:Epic weapon focus Kukri
22.RDD:
23.RDD:
24.RDD:Epic skill focus Hide
25.RDD:
26.RDD:Epic Prowess
27.Bard:Epic Skill Focus Move silently
28.RDD:
29.RDD:
30.RDD:Improved Knock Down
31.RDD:Armour skinn
32.RDD:
33.RDD:Epic Skill Focus Spot
34.RDD:
35.RDD:Epic toughness
36.RDD:Spare Feat (expertise)
37.RDD:
38.RDD:
39.Bard:Spare Feat (Improved Expertise)
40.RDD:Epic toughness

Skills:
Disceplin:43
Hide:38
Movesilently: 42
Spot: 43
Spell Craft: 43
Tumble: 40
UMD: 7
Preform: 1
Listen:2
Ride:2
Persuade: 1
Intimidate: 1
Lore 8
(Why, yes, I did shamelessly steal that one from Dalskap.)

On this server, however, RDDs use their base CON in melee shape, so boosting that stat up a bit would be ideal. Though note that the elven penalty to CON does not apply when shifted, so elf is still the best choice.

That said, you didn't ask for the standard build; you asked about a Ranger/RDD/Bard.

And I'll get right to the point. I'm not sure what you want out of the Ranger levels. You'll need at least 26 RDD levels to get the best dragon shape, and one level of Bard. That leaves 13 levels for Ranger.

Rangers tend to be late bloomers, though. There's no real reason to invest unless you're taking 21+ levels for Bane of Enemies.

Unless, maybe, you were planning on focusing on the casting RDD shapes? (Which admittedly I know hardly anything about.)

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Re: build ideas?

Post  DarthKittyBoo on Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:44 pm

Wait wait wait.... is there a particular forum where builds are discussed? It would save on A LOT of questions!! Otherwise I can shoot about 10 of em off at you lol

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Re: build ideas?

Post  J. Persinne on Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:54 pm

The old Axfell forums were open for discussion of builds, though 1) hardly anybody took advantage of that, and 2) the forum is long dead, since it was attached to Moth's server.

Alack. You'll just have to ask oodles of questions here.

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Re: build ideas?

Post  DarthKittyBoo on Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:56 pm

well my ranger build wound up being heavy on the ranger side with 26 lvls for BoE and a few extra bonus feats. My cbc shows about the same BAB as listed above. The idea being to use the first ten of rdd to help boost his mele presence.

Would a ranger do well (mixed with any other class) on this server or best left alone?

I was considering going another direction and making an archer with outstanding AC- a sneaker- shadowdancer, rogue, assassin type my inspiration being a particular enemy I had at near death and because I couldn't hit them, they almost killed me even doing mediocre damage. Their difficult rating only being moderate. There don't seem to be a lot ofarchers running about- granted I'm not sure if that is for a substantial reason or not

Also I was curious was the multiclass exp penelties are on the server?

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Re: build ideas?

Post  J. Persinne on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:37 am

DarthKittyBoo wrote:well my ranger build wound up being heavy on the ranger side with 26 lvls for BoE and a few extra bonus feats. My cbc shows about the same BAB as listed above. The idea being to use the first ten of rdd to help boost his mele presence.
Aha, that explains the confusion. The RDD class does not receive the standard bonuses here. It is purely a shifty class.
DarthKittyBoo wrote:I was considering going another direction and making an archer with outstanding AC- a sneaker- shadowdancer, rogue, assassin type my inspiration being a particular enemy I had at near death and because I couldn't hit them, they almost killed me even doing mediocre damage. Their difficult rating only being moderate. There don't seem to be a lot ofarchers running about- granted I'm not sure if that is for a substantial reason or not
In PvE, high defense, low damage works; it's a little slow, but it works.

But bear in mind that in PvP, most characters have access to some kind of healing, whether it be spells, heal scrolls, or heal amulets/belts/rings. While heal items only heal 250 hp here (as opposed to the default full heal), it's still enough to make one thing certain: if you try to hide behind a high AC while whittling down the other guy, he's simply going to pull out a heal scroll many rounds down the road. And then he'll ignore you as he goes to beat down your friend.

Defense is important, but High Offense/Low Defense > High Defense/Low Offense.

Archers tend to have poor offense relative to other classes, which may account somewhat for their rarity, but it's possible to build them with enough offense to "do something". Monk/AAs and zen archers (Cleric-based) are the most common approaches, though certainly not the only viable ones.
DarthKittyBoo wrote:Would a ranger do well (mixed with any other class) on this server or best left alone?
In PvE, you could go pure. There's not really much reason to, though, as the pure bonuses aren't all that great.

The most common approach with a ranger is to focus on melee and stealth abilities. For this, you'll want either monk speed (for cornersneaking) or HiPS in order to hold your own in PvP. Fighting is rarely so straightforward as clicking on the other guy and waiting until you win, so having an out plan is a must.

This leaves two obvious possibilities:

Ranger/Rogue/Shadowdancer. Benefits: UMD, epic dodge, and sneak attack. Downsides: slow, reliant on flanking or catching opponents flatfooted.

Ranger/Monk (at least nine levels)/SomethingElse. SomethingElse should be tailored to taste; Shadowdancer could work here, though note that due to how the HiPS timer works, cornersneaking won't be an option (it'll kick you out of stealth if you try to hide again too soon, regardless of whether you were in sight or not). I had a lot of luck with a Ranger/Monk/WM on a Genesis-based server elsewhere. On most servers, it's simply hillariously feat-starved, but rangers here receive a great deal more bonus damage than in the default game, making it a viable option. You could go either DEX-based or STR-based with this approach.

The other approach you could take is to focus on the bow. You could aim for AA, but you'd have poor AC due to lack of monk levels. You could throw in Monk and Fighter (for Epic Weapon Specialization), but then you'd be more or less a mediocre knockoff of the AA. On the other hand, Ranger/Monk/SD could be interesting.

Rangers don't really need to focus on the bow to be competent enough with it to down things at range, though, so I wouldn't bother. Focusing on melee is probably your best bet.
DarthKittyBoo wrote:Also I was curious was the multiclass exp penelties are on the server?
Alas, yes.

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Re: build ideas?

Post  DarthKittyBoo on Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:12 pm

Grrr... ok

scratch the archer idea... you talked me out of it.

This next post might be a bit strange- I have a lot of thoughts at the moment.


1) Back tracking to my shifter thoughts in the past (before this thread) I know that you gain dragon shape earlier then the original- how early? I searched ALL OVER the threads and I have NO idea why that wouldn't be included anywhere. People mention that you get it much earlier but I can;t find it stated anywhere how early. I know this depends on build but I'm basically asking how much wisdom is req'd. I do know that if you go shifter dragon (which I suppose is the best way since you'd have to weapon focus in battleaxe and Id on't suppose that would be easy to do as druid) you have to take the shifted forms "before the next class".

2) ALSO I was told on the server that weapons, gear and armor do not combine when you shift as a shifter YET on the setbb listing of a dragons- it says W: Y I: Y and A: Y. am I reading that wrong or does it say that yes they do?

3) so I'm contemplating the whole cbc idea and I guess this thing won't work too much because it's programed with the unanphillia stats and abilities?

4) would incorporating a little rogue into a shifter build focused on dragon work at all? Worth it to focus on epic drow??

4) I think I have decided I want to become a more hands on fighter- I've been the same build for the past how many years and I've become bored with it. I basically want to make a character that is adding something to the server- RP and part of the team in PvE and PvP. I don't know if a shifter would work for that or not.

I may bounce back around the ranger/wm/monk idea...

I really appreciate your help though! Smile I've been spending more time these past three weeks trying to figure out the builds then I have actually been playing on the server! ha!


Last edited by DarthKittyBoo on Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : changed my mind)

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Re: build ideas?

Post  J. Persinne on Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:45 pm

DarthKittyBoo wrote:
1) Back tracking to my shifter thoughts in the past (before this thread) I know that you gain dragon shape earlier then the original- how early? I searched ALL OVER the threads and I have NO idea why that wouldn't be included anywhere. People mention that you get it much earlier but I can;t find it stated anywhere how early. I know this depends on build but I'm basically asking how much wisdom is req'd. I do know that if you go shifter dragon (which I suppose is the best way since you'd have to weapon focus in battleaxe and Id on't suppose that would be easy to do as druid) you have to take the shifted forms "before the next class".
"Earlier" is a misnomer. It'd be more accurate to say that you get it "differently".

The prerequisites are 26 Wisdom and either Construct Shape or Infinite Elemental Shape.
DarthKittyBoo wrote:2) ALSO I was told on the server that weapons, gear and armor do not combine when you shift as a shifter YET on the setbb listing of a dragons- it says W: Y I: Y and A: Y. am I reading that wrong or does it say that yes they do?
Shifters do merge items, and dragons merge everything. You can check out the specifics on other shapes by downloading the full public release override and opening polymorph.2da (as a text file) from here: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=5952

It's also important to note that shifters were changed a bit from Moth's to the public release. Most shapes here, for example, use the character's base CON.
DarthKittyBoo wrote:3) so I'm contemplating the whole cbc idea and I guess this thing won't work too much because it's programed with the unanphillia stats and abilities?
It's still a great tool, and I use it all the time. You just have to know where the discrepancies are.
DarthKittyBoo wrote:4) would incorporating a little rogue into a shifter build focused on dragon work at all? Worth it to focus on epic drow??
Rogues make for poor shifters. Lack of discipline and a full BAB class will not serve you well.

I'm not particularly fond of epic drow. The other shapes tend to have better AB, better resistances, or both.
DarthKittyBoo wrote:4) I think I have decided I want to become a more hands on fighter- I've been the same build for the past how many years and I've become bored with it. I basically want to make a character that is adding something to the server- RP and part of the team in PvE and PvP. I don't know if a shifter would work for that or not.
I've been pretty vocal about my distaste for the changes made to shifters in the public release, but, despite the occasional hyperbole, I'd imagine they're still playable. Shifter/Barbarians were traditional on Moth's; the rage bonuses and damage reduction made for nice perks. That's certainly not the only route you could go, though. It's a fairly flexible class.

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Re: build ideas?

Post  DarthKittyBoo on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:08 am

Ok forgive me for jumping around with the build topics.

Ranger/Monk/SomethingElse Topic:
If I'm focusing on Melee and Stealth- wouldn't I be better off doing the whole fighter/rogue/WM route? I kind of don't want to because it seems like everyone on the server is doing so- but would the BoE and Fave Enemies help make a R/M/WM powerful enough to be a worthy opponent in PvP?

I'm posting my "failed" build to see if it can be manipulated to fit above stated...



Shifter/Barb
Easy questions I guess... what abilities would one focus on since it's a shifting type (wis and con?) Taking more barb or shifter in the leveling split? Probably more shifter to get all the shapes yes? you need 17 for humanoid shape which then you need undead, outsider, construct and dragon (well I guess dragon isn't necessary)


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Re: build ideas?

Post  Rhine Jive Click on Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:08 pm

You can take Undead Shape at Shifter 10, if you fit it so that you get a feat on that level-up. I'd suggest much Barbarian pre-epic for the BAB (But that means it'll be useless until epic levels - however more powerful in the end) and as for WIS, just enough to take whatver shapes you want (Dragon is 26 here, the others are less) and the rest CON.

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Re: build ideas?

Post  DarthKittyBoo on Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:36 pm

Well I plugged a R21/M9/WM10 and trying to make that work...

I'm not real sure if it's advisable to take 21 Ranger but I guess it's implied above that BoE is worth it.

Figured taking all Monk pre-epic is necessary but that really pushed back BoE so I have them really spread out throughout the whole build.

I'm not sure why people chop up the level distribution so much. I'm sure there is a reason but for the life of me I have no idea why.

That's my update

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Re: build ideas?

Post  J. Persinne on Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:55 pm

Fighter/Rogue/WM <> Ranger/Monk

Your typical Fighter is a charger (if you haven't read about them, do so here). Their strength is in disabling a single opponent (or group of opponents) for a short period of time. This makes them ideal for, ehm, charging down center field in order to make an offensive push, or for holding down a position. But note that once their charges are spent, they're just mediocre meleers.

The Ranger/Monk is more of an opportunist, focused on stealth and hit and run tactics to harass the opposition and pick off fragile targets. They also double as archers for downing gate guards during assaults, as their damage bonuses apply regardless of the weapon they use.

Fighter/Monk/WMs are also fairly common. They lack the charges that Fighter/Rogue/WMs have and the stealth and bow capabilities that a Ranger/Monk has, but maintain speed and a very high AB.

DarthKittyBoo wrote:I'm not real sure if it's advisable to take 21 Ranger but I guess it's implied above that BoE is worth it.
BoE represents +2 AB and an average of +7 damage on a regular hit to FEs, which is pretty significant. 20 Ranger levels also allow you to self cast Aid and Prayer, resulting in +3 AB and +2 damage. Ergo, by going for 21 Ranger levels, you net +5 AB and +9 damage against FEs (in addition to the regular FE bonuses).
DarthKittyBoo wrote:Figured taking all Monk pre-epic is necessary but that really pushed back BoE so I have them really spread out throughout the whole build.
You'd want to take all of your Monk levels epic since Monk is a +3/4 AB progression class and Ranger is a full AB progression class. Past level 20, the AB of each class you take doesn't matter; you simply get +1 AB every two levels. So pushing the Monk levels back results in better AB.

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Re: build ideas?

Post  I Almost on Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:48 pm

About your shifter/Druid. i believe dragon shape takes 30+ wis to get dragons shape and 21 lvls of druid+shifter lvls are needed.
And i would say that rogue class actually make for very painfull druid/shifters if made corretly. if wanted i can give some suggestions towards druid/shifters with rogue lvls. And Anything/shifter/Barb can make for dealy combinations. i know one very strong druid dragon with barb lvls that used to play on moths anphillia.
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